All My Children by Martha Thomases: Brilliant Disguise
November 22, 2008 Martha Thomases 13 Comments
Last week’s column seems to have started an interesting discussion. We were discussing marriage, civil unions, and which citizens should be allowed to enter into these legal (not religious) relationships.
Since I’m nothing if not a whore for comments, let’s continue.
Some of the objections to gay marriage contend that it opens the door to legalizing other relationships, including incest, polygamy and polyandry. Although I don’t agree that this would happen, let’s leave that aside for the moment.
It seems to me that people confuse marriage as it is defined legally with any sexual relationship. To me, this demeans marriage. Not that I think sex is demeaning – quite the opposite. But it’s an activity, not a relationship.
Thanks to our courts recognizing that we have a right to privacy in this country, most of the laws that criminalize sexual activities between consenting adults have been stricken from the books.
Let’s talk about the next set of exceptions. Some institutions have their own sets of rules: professors cannot have sex with students, priests and other religious leaders with members of their congregations, therapists with patients, bosses with subordinates. In these cases, the law recognizes that there is an imbalance in power between the two people, and that the less powerful person might feel coerced, not able to freely choose.
So, for the most part, we’re free to have sex with whomever we choose, providing we’re both adults. And, as long as there is consent, we’re free to have whatever kind of sex we want. Yes, there are still a few backwoods places that consider “sodomy” to be evil, but I suspect most people don’t realize that, legally, sodomy is anything but penis/vagina sex, and I doubt if, even there, folks are being arrested for blowjobs.
This is not to say the laws shouldn’t be repealed. They should. As long as they’re on the books, people can be threatened with jail, blackmail or public humiliation. Laws like this are perfect for the kind of selective enforcement that is biased by definition. Also, the idea of cops spying on people to see if they’re breaking these laws creeps me out – although it would be a funny Simpsons episode.
There are also no laws regulating how many sexual partners a person can have. We are, each of us, allowed to negotiate this in our relationships. You can date more than one person at a time, have friends with benefits, or be a serial monogamist. Adultery can be grounds for divorce, but only if one of the parties sues on those grounds. If they agree it’s okay with them, it’s okay.
We have all kinds of relationships with people that are not defined legally. Marriage, however, is so defined. That’s because, among other things, marriage is about more than sex. It’s a partnership between two people formed for the purpose of having a family. Married couples make medical decisions for themselves and their minor children. They share financial responsibilities.
My husband has the right to take me off life-support if it’s extending my life artificially, and I might have to do the same for him. We cook and clean up after each other. We co-mingle our funds. He knows the correct answer to “Do I look fat in this?” (which is, “Of course not, darling! In fact, you need pie!”)
It is the daily ness of our relationship, our interdependence that makes us married. I don’t think any other two people would have the same relationship, nor would they be satisfied with it if they could. And vice versa. Couples are even more different from each other than individuals.
It helps society that we form families. They keep neighborhoods are more stable, and take care of children, the elderly and the weak. Instead of limiting these responsibilities, we should be finding ways of encouraging people to want them.
In 1990, when Clark Kent proposed to Lois Lane, I got a lot of questions from reporters about whether or not they had sex before marriage. (Yes, our national discourse is in the gutter, and has been for decades.) Being a responsible publicist and only wanting to give truthful answers, I asked then-Superman editor, Mike Carlin. He told me, “That’s private.”
I think the Constitution should recognize that this is true for all of us.
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Media Goddess Martha Thomases wishes everyone a Thanksgiving and thanks them for this new year.
Marc Fishman
November 22, 2008 - 2:27 pm
To be as brief as I can be on the subject as I’m sure so many have thrown in their two cents… to me the issue is fairly straight forward:
The law grants us freedom of religion. We should have every legal right to marry another human being, no matter their race, creed, gender, etc. The law upholds this union, and grants it the same proxy and benefits whether it be man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman.
The religious institution of marriage should be up to the religion in question. We know many sects of religion that would string together marriage as being religiously defined as “man and woman”.
Simply put, remove the government from being able to dictate who we form a civil union with, and call it whatever you want FOR EVERYBODY. This country was built on the principles of equality and freedom. Despite this, we fight these principles for reasons still unknown to me. So long as someone isn’t getting into my personal business or forcing their beliefs on me… live and let live.
Russ Rogers
November 22, 2008 - 3:27 pm
Marriage is a conservative ideal. It promotes (but doesn’t necessarily dictate) long term monogamous relationships. Some psychologists and public health officials seems to think there are benefits to long term monogamous relationships. Marriage is in it’s way a very romanticized and idealized notion.
Family is a conservative ideal. It’s a group of people, not rigidly defined by generations or even blood, there a ways to formally and informally “adopt” people into your “family.” In general, the ideal is that families support each other emotionally, financially, medically and every other way imaginable. They are the fundamental node, cell, body, group where we tend to look for nurture and care. Family is also a very romanticized and idealized notion. But, at their best, marriage and family are both very conservative values.
So I have trouble seeing why conservative minded people don’t want to extend the conservative ideals of marriage, long term monogamous relationships and family to include gay people. Love is love.
OK, there is the SEX ISSUE. Some people can get very squeamish about sex. It drives them nuts, imagining how some people can find pleasure in something that they don’t understand at all. It’s all the ick-factor of slurping raw oysters, or sushi or Hot Pepper Eating Contests … the “Well, I don’t understand how anybody could like THAT!” and extending it into a way of life.
I get that squeamish when I see pictures of people who have done EXTREME body modifications: split tongues, surgically implanting devils horns, turning their whole faces into feline or lizard visages. For me, there is something freakish and horrible there that I don’t understand. It makes me afraid and I don’t know why. But there is some part of me that wants to scream, “Shouldn’t that be ILLEGAL?” From my perspective, MY revulsion seems to be the ONLY reaction they are gunning for. Obviously that not the case, but that’s my gut reaction.
I think some people have the same gut reaction to gay marriage. They get hung up on their own squeamish reactions to things that they can’t see any appeal in for themselves and misinterpret that as an attack on their own sensibilities. Gay people want to get married for themselves, not as an ATTACK on traditional heterosexual marriage. It’s not a competition. It’s not a war. It’s just love. In the end, love is love.
Martha Thomases
November 22, 2008 - 3:33 pm
mmmmmm…. oysters!
Bringham Young
November 22, 2008 - 6:13 pm
So then, the Mormons had it right, in that the government was infringing upon them, when the men wanted to be able to marry as many women as they wish. The people involved, loved each other, right? Who cares if it was a marriage between 1 man and 5 women, and together they had 20 kids. It’s love right?
Martha Thomases
November 22, 2008 - 8:21 pm
If we define marriage as the partnership of two consenting adults, then the gender of those adults doesn’t matter.
If Mormon polygamous marriages are among consenting adults (and not under-age girls) and they raise their children themselves (i.e. don’t rely on the state to support their 20 children), than I, personally, don’t have a problem with it. Similarly, I don’t have a problem with people who have five wives, one after another, accompanied by a minimum of four divorces.
It’s not the way I’d like to live, but, hey, I’m not asking for your approval of my life, either.
pennie
November 23, 2008 - 6:54 am
Russ, you make much sense to me, especially in your awareness that while you have personal reactions to particular behaviors, activities, appearances…it isn’t your right to impose those reactions–or your own standards–on others. Ir everyone shared your inclusionary perspective of live-and-let-live, this life and world would be so much better. for all concerned.
From ancient civilizations to the Crusades to the European conquistadors to current religious and cultural organizations, missionaries remain relentless in their pursuit of the rest of us. Give it up! The sooner the better. If I wanted to identify as a ______, I would do so.
It’s why I’ve always been alternately amused and horrified by the accusations of a mysterious, octopus-like “Gay Agenda!” The sole aim of even the most politically active and vocal homosexual, is the drive for acceptance and equality–a far different intent or objective than conversion. Sodomy in the streets, while humorous in a sense, is not on anyone’s publicly stated agenda which I am aware. And I read a lot.
I believe that history has clearly demonstrated that subjugation is doomed to failure. The human heart and spirit finds a way to resist and ultimately, will actively seek a way to live that makes sense, with as few constraints as possible. It’s that “Live Free or Die.” thing.
Seems to me that Relationship are no different. After all, isn’t that what life is–marriage, friendships, government, etc. The better the foundation, the stronger the agreements, the longer they last.
If you have a problem with my need in a long-term lesbian relationship (along with millions of other homosexuals), to be equal in every sense to those in the rest of society, as Martha stated above, “It’s not the way I’d like to live, but, hey, I’m not asking for your approval of my life, either.”
peace and light,
pennie
Mike Gold
November 23, 2008 - 1:38 pm
“So then, the Mormons had it right, in that the government was infringing upon them, when the men wanted to be able to marry as many women as they wish. The people involved, loved each other, right? Who cares if it was a marriage between 1 man and 5 women, and together they had 20 kids. It’s love right?”
I don’t care if it’s love, Bringham Young. It’s their decision, not yours, not mine, and most certainly not the government’s. If one man and five women are all adults (an important caveat) and that’s the relationship they choose for themselves, why is it anybody else’s business?
The only real argument I’ve heard against polygamy that I’ve heard could be roughly translated down to “Well, it’s less pussy for me.” To my experience, those who voice that sort of argument were never in danger of getting any in the first place. Not even if they held a state lottery.
pennie
November 23, 2008 - 2:10 pm
Thanks Mike.
Anyone who thinks that most women think of apportioning sexual gratification like a chocolate cream pie dessert are probably doomed to being eternally horny–and hungry.
pennie
Martha Thomases
November 23, 2008 - 3:05 pm
You only have to watch a few episodes of JUDGE JUDY to see that there are lots of men fathering children with more than one woman at a time. In many cases, the state gets involved in these relationships, to make sure the man pays child support (especially when the mother and child are on welfare).
If these relationships had to be codified by law, the man would have many more legal obligations (as would the women).
I’m wondering if polygamous marriage is the way lesbians will be allowed to marry. That’s the patriarchy’s idea of legitimizing gay marriage — get a man involved.
Liz Glass
November 24, 2008 - 6:59 am
You are a goddess, Martha, but here you are wrong: there is no law forcing a husband/father to help support his children; there are no legal obligations. None. It is perfectly legal for a husband/father to spend 100% of his salary on beer or comics and financially abandon his children. That is why poor women can not marry or have to kick out deadbeat dads: to force them to pay child support. Happy Monday!
Jeremiah Avery
November 24, 2008 - 7:34 am
I think my politics can be summed up as “To each their own in life, but don’t touch my money”. Whether it’s Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve, the world won’t end. I don’t need to see it, but hey that’s why we have a concept called privacy!
Does anyone find it ironic that Bill Clinton was the one that signed the “Defense of Marriage Act”?
Russ Rogers
November 24, 2008 - 7:36 am
First off, I think the issues of gay marriage and polygamous marriage (or polyandrous relationships) are entirely separate. Implying giving gay people the right to marry suddenly opens up the slippery slope of what is currently a legal or illegal marriage is a red herring. It’s muddies the waters and clouds the real issues at hand.
That said, the issue of polygamy have come up. Let’s take a peek.
First off, multiple partner marriages would open a huge can logistical and legal nightmares.
What if Husband #1 marries wives #1, #2 and #3. If Husband #1 and Wife #2 die in a car accident, are wife #1 and #3 still married? Who gets custody of Wife #2’s biological children? Do Wife #1 and Wife #3 split the estate evenly? Are Wife #1 and #3 still married or do they have to get a divorce if they don’t want to be? What if Husband #1 was married to Wife #1 for 30 years and to Wife #3 for 3 days, does Wife #3 get an even share of the estate?
Can Wife # 2 marry Husband #2 without Husband #1’s permission? Does Wife #2 have to get Wife #1’s and Wife #3’s permission? Does Husband #2 have to marry into the family unit, must he also marry Wife #1 and #3?
Can Husband marry wife #4 without Wife #1, 2 and 3’s permission? Can Husband #1 marry Wife #2 or #3 in secret, without telling the previous wives?
Mike Gold boils down the issue of polygamy to the basics. “It’s less pussy for me.” He implies that those who voice that argument aren’t going to be getting any anyway. In an open society, that might be the case. But polygamous groups are TINY, CLOSED societies. So competing for females is VERY real. It’s not the men without wives who see the world as, “It’s less pussy for me,” it’s the older married men.
When Older Men live in a culture where they expect to marry the new generation of younger women (in a small closed group), it’s to their benefit to find reasons why adolescent boys and young men need to be branded as “heretics” and cast out of the group at a very young age. It’s not the HAVE NOTS who become the assholes. It’s the HAVES.
Boys are expelled and excommunicated at ages as young as 13. It’s evil.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/09/us/09polygamy.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=boys+cast+out+by+polygamists+find+help
Look, gay marriage does NOT open the door to Necrophilia! Even if a woman WILLED her body to her boyfriend so he could take it to a taxidermist, so he could marry IT, that’s not EVER going to be a legal marriage. That’s never going to be LEGAL…ever…anywhere! AND I don’t care if it’s done between consenting adults in the privacy of their own home. I’m willing to step out on a limb and boldly state, NECROPHILIA is SICK and WRONG and SHOULD REMAIN ILLEGAL. NECROPHILIA is a social and moral OUTRAGE. The LIVING should not BOINK the DEAD! Not everything that consenting adults want to do should be legal. And YES, if you want to marry and have sex with your dead girlfriend, I find THAT enough of an attack on my ideal of what marriage is about, enough of an affront on my sensibilities that I think it MUST remain illegal! Let’s get this straight, you can’t marry animals, dead people, things (including computers and dolls) or children. You can have SEX with things if you want, but DEAD people aren’t THINGS! There is a difference between a cadaver and a dildo. Not everything that adults want to do, even in thew privacy of their own homes, should be legal.
The reason I bring up necrophilia is because it has NOTHING to do with gay marriage, just like polygamy has NOTHING to do with gay marriage. They are separate issues.
Martha Thomases
November 24, 2008 - 7:49 am
Liz, my legal knowledge comes entirely from stupid court TV shows. That said, I know that if children receive welfare, their parents’ paychecks can be taken by the government to offset the costs. The state determines that parents have to pay.
At least when there is no marriage, and paternity has been established.
So sayeth Judge Judy.