Hume Dreaming Of A White Christian, by Mike Gold – Brainiac On Banjo #152
January 11, 2010 Mike Gold 0 Comments
You’d think that the time had passed when the far right wing liars at Fox News could surprise me. I was wrong. Fox has managed to pull off the impossible and hit a new low at the same time.
Their Brit Hume gave some advice to the wayward Tiger Woods. “He’s said to be a Buddhist. I don’t think that faith offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the Christian faith. Tiger, turn to the Christian faith and you can make a total recovery.”
Not only is Hume totally unfamiliar with the Buddhist faith, he couldn’t care enough to see if his bigoted babble possessed any taint of truth. Yep, that’s fair and impartial. That’s “we report, you decide.” That’s the Fox Inquisition.
Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes: if you allow Hume a platform for religious hatred, then you both are his fellow travelers. We must assume that you both personally support his statement. That’s fine; I am not suggesting you fire the guy. Not in the least. What I am saying is that you support, you facilitate, these disgusting views. You are backing his bigotry and his hate.
How would Fox News’ top guns – Hume, O’Reilly, Beck – react if some non-Christian anchorman went out on any other “news” network, most assuredly MSNBC, and said “George W. Bush is said to be a Christian. I don’t think that faith offers the kind of forgiveness and redemption that is offered by the fill-in-the-blank faith. George, turn to the fill-in-the-blank faith and you can make a total recovery.”
I’ll tell you how they’d react. They’d say it was a liberal plot to destroy Christianity. They’d say Christians are the most discriminated of all Americans, even though they constitute 76% of the population. Then they’d interview Pat Buchanan to prove they’re open-mined about Catholics.
The fact is, a tremendous number of Christians do not believe Buddhism is a real religion. Same thing with Hindu and Shinto. There are more than two and one-half billion followers of these three faiths. That’s about 40% of the world’s total population. If they’re going to discriminate against a group of people, at least they’re picking on a group their own size.
Several years ago, I made a suggestion to the head of Stamford Connecticut Council of Christians and Jews that they change their name to be less exclusive and to reach out to the entire community by supporting the socially acceptable cliché of religious diversity. I had no illusion that the organization would accept atheists as anything more than sub-human, but at least they could expand to include the world’s majority faiths.
Like good little liberals, they added Muslims to their name – and that was it. Buddhists, Hindus, Shintos: go screw yourselves, it’s our great Unigod or your heathen hell. Right-wingers like Brit Hume are by no means alone; a great many so-called liberals are intolerant asses.
America. Freedom of Religion. What a load.
Mike Gold performs the weekly two-hour Weird Sounds Inside The Gold Mind ass-kicking bizarro music and blather show starts up Sundays at 7:00 PM Eastern on www.getthepointradio.com, replayed the following Thursdays at 10:00 PM Eastern. Likewise, his Weird Scenes Inside The Gold Mind rants pop up every on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday exclusively at www.getthepointradio.com. The regular Weird Scenes Inside The Gold Mind rants continue every Monday and Friday on The Point podcasts, available right here at www.michaeldavisworld.com, as well as at www.comicmix.com, www.getthepointradio.com,www.zzcomics.com, and www.ravenwolfstudios.com. You can subscribe to The Point podcasts at iTunes by searching under “The Point Radio.”
Gold is also a regular contributor to www comicmix.com, and edits their online comic book content. Please go out and buy a copy of Trevor Von Eeden’s The Original Johnson. It’s a great book, we’ve all worked hard on it, Trevor’s spent 15 years of his life on it, it’s his best stuff, and it’s got a lot of good, clean, non-gratuitous sex and nudity. From IDW/ComicMix.
Martha Thomases
January 11, 2010 - 7:17 am
Yeah, Brit Hume’s Christianity has been such a moral guidepost for Mark Sanford, John Ensign, etc.
Or, as TBogg puts it: http://tbogg.firedoglake.com/2010/01/10/bodhisattva-would-you-take-me-by-the-hand/
Marc Alan Fishman
January 11, 2010 - 9:32 am
Mike, Mike, Mike… have you not seen our bill of rights? It CLEARLY states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
We have the freedom to choose any religion we want in America. But others make it their business to tell you that you’re wrong if you didn’t choose THEIR religion. How you can be surprised by Fox is beyond me at this point. Rupert just wants money. Scandal sells. And the crazy asses in the far right who think that Fox news is somehow impartial, keep on watching, and supporting the insanity.
I’m both proud and sad to say I’m amongst the thousands (maybe millions) who still have to turn to Jon Stewart for my news. I prefer fake news to fascist news.
Mike Gold
January 11, 2010 - 10:33 am
Martha — I’m reminded of the huge bible-thumbing demonstrations held back in the early 1900s in Chicago’s Levee District, home to a great many dens of iniquity, including the fabled caterer to kings, the Everleigh Club. That’s where the line “the town Billy Sunday could not shut down” comes from; Sunday was an Evangelist (and former baseball player) who led rallies throughout the district urging fallen women to reform and fallen men from, ah, falling. Whenever these rallies happened, the madams who ran the houses prepared themselves for another extremely busy evening: after the rally, a LOT of guys hung around to see what they were bitching about.
The bigger they preach, the harder they fall. That’s history for you.
Rick Oliver
January 11, 2010 - 11:23 am
re: “The fact is, a tremendous number of Christians do not believe Buddhism is a real religion.”
The sad fact is a tremendous number of Christians don’t see anything other than their own particular brand of Christianity as a real religion. Many Christians don’t consider Mormons to be Christians (it has nothing to do with the multiple wives business; it’s Joseph Smith as a prophet of god that is problematic), and many Protestants think Catholics are in league with the devil, since the Pope is, of course, the anti-Christ.
When the founders wrote the first amendment, they were heavily influenced by the factors that landed many of their ancestors on this continent in the first place: religious persecution by one group of Christians (Anglicans) against another group of Christians (Puritans) in England.
Tony Isabella
January 11, 2010 - 1:18 pm
I’m starting my own religion this year. You’ll like it.
Russ Rogers
January 11, 2010 - 1:30 pm
First off, Brit Hume, at least in this case, is an IDIOT. It’s not his job to be proselytizing to Tiger Woods or anyone else. And this was an embarrassment to Christianity, at least the way I define myself as a Christian.
But what is the tremendous number of Christians that do not believe Buddhism is a real religion? What percentage of Christians? Was there a poll? I’m a Christian, and I think Buddhism is real. I have never been taught in any Church that I’ve attended that Buddhism isn’t real. Where did you get your figures, Mike? Or are you making them up as you go along?
I’m not a member of the Stamford Connecticut Council of Christians and Jews, but I doubt that even a majority of their members view atheists as “sub-human.” Really? Sub-human? You seem to be rhetorically exaggerating your argument, overstating it quite a bit.
I tried to Google for the Stamford, Connecticut Council of Christians and Jews, to see if I could find some evidence of their view that atheists are sub-human. I couldn’t find it. I couldn’t find their views. I couldn’t find the Council.
I did find The Interfaith Council of Southwestern Connecticut (formerly known as the Council of Churches and Synagogues). http://www.interfaithcouncil.org/ Is this the group you were talking about? This group that seems to have changed it’s name to be more inclusive of diverse faiths? The one which says, “Our mission is creating justice, compassion, and peace through mutual understanding.”
Why Mike, there seems to be a group of folks who have taken many of your suggestions to heart! I looked through their web-site. Nothing about sub-human atheists. I don’t think you need to be condescending and call people “good little liberals” either. These folks appear to be sincere to their Mission Statement.
Look, Rupert Murdoch, Fox News and Brit Hume have made a brown-nosing daisy chain out of putting their heads up each other’s asses! But they are NOT representative of Christians! I for one refuse to let them represent me.
I’m a Christian. I’m an American. And Freedom of Religion is not a load of crap.
Yes, in America we have freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion. That means, occasionally public figures like Brit Hume are free to say incredibly stupid things about religion, even my Religion. And we are free to call them out as the douche bags that they are.
Mike Gold
January 11, 2010 - 1:30 pm
Tony, sign me up. And if you need any help with your tax-free filing, let me know. Been there, done that.
Mike Gold
January 11, 2010 - 1:52 pm
Russ, I was involved with the Stamford organization in question back during the beginning of the decade. I wouldn’t swear to remembering their name one way or the other outside of it being Christian/Jewish exclusive, but if that’s what is now called the Interfaith Council, that’s great.
As for the attitude of its members AT THE TIME towards atheists, I’ll stand by my analysis and site personal experience: they posed the question (and, again, I paraphrase) “What does atheism have to do with faith and morality. We’re about faith and morality.” That earned them a lecture about how society had a well-developed sense of morals long before the Unigod and that I, an atheist, have a busload of faith… in humanity. Then I asked about the morality of crusades and inquisitions.
You might not want to invite me to your next tea-and-cookies soiree.
Freedom of Religion is indeed a load of crap. You have to swear your allegiance to the Unigod in order to hold high office in Pennsylvania and several other states. Blue laws abound — Macy’s is closed Bergen County New Jersey on Sunday, you can’t (or at least until recently couldn’t) buy a car in Illinois on Sunday, you will get thrown out of Yankee Stadium if you don’t stand up for the singing of “God Bless America,” Christmas is a national holiday dooming the rest of us to Chinese food and big-screen movies, and, oh yeah, when was the last time we had a non-Christian president or vice-president? If somebody didn’t utter the “so help me god” bit at the end of the presidential oath, do you doubt that he’d be hounded out of office? It isn’t part of the real oath, you know.
But if I had to point to a single item in American culture that tells me we give, at best, lip service to the concept of Freedom of Religion, it’s the alteration made in the mid-50s to our Pledge of Allegiance, adding the damnable phrase “under god.” Fuck that shit. I’m an American and I’m not into your god. So screw you and your fucking bigoted Pledge of Allegiance. That is what defines an American; ergo, Freedom of Religion in America is a load of crap.
Sorry, pal. If nearly 60 years of living in this land of pampered zealots have taught me one thing and one thing only, it’s that real freedom of religion in the United States of America is, and always has been, the bunk.
There’s a whole lot more Brit Humes out there than you think. And they’re speaking in your name.
Marc Alan Fishman
January 11, 2010 - 2:38 pm
Whew. That’s quite the response. I cited the official document that “grants” us the freedom to practice whatever religion tickles our fancy, but Mike… you make it clear that for those in power, and under the watchful eye of those in power… the “freedom” is BS.
Russ, obviously intelligent Christians such as yourself, and intelligent jews like me can respect and give respect to those who have or even denounce faith. I for one would invite Mike to any tea party I had, cause I as a person LOVE religious debate. Hell, I could go into a tirade right now as to how Christianity as a whole seems to be built on lies, murder, and false pretense. And because I live in this country, I can “almost” get away with it!
The fact remains, the generation in power is corrupt and unfair. It allows states to decide who can and can’t get married. It protects “don’t ask, don’t tell”. It celebrates “pious” men, and snubs it’s nose to those who don’t proclaim their love of the Unigod. And I base this, on only 28 short years on this rock. I say this because I see it every day. For Christ’s sake (and I use that phrase ironically) we live in a country that (somehow) accepts SCIENTOLOGY, a religion based on the novels of a FICTION WRITER to be somehow more acceptable than atheism, or for that matter, any number of western religions.
I can only hope and pray that as the old generations die out, and my generation is handed the keys to the castle, we have learned enough from the sins of our fathers… to truly accept all creeds, and cultures…and all religions.
Marc Alan Fishman
January 11, 2010 - 2:39 pm
and I said that wrong. I mean “Eastern Religions”.
pennie
January 11, 2010 - 5:32 pm
I’ll use Thailand as an example. I defy anyone to tell me the last time this country invaded another. I’m fairly familiar with it. Just googled the latest figure. Total population is 67,386,383. Ninety-five percent are Buddhist. That’s a lot of heathens in a small place. The other five percent is divided between Muslim, Shinto, Confucianism, Christian, Jewish and others.
When I was there for a time and got to know lots of people, I never experienced any religious intolerance toward a minority faith, such as Christianity. When I asked–and I sooo did, the response was confusion and disbelief. Why would anyone do that? Buddhism has such a respect for ALL life and all people.
I’m not going to dwell on points already made here. Many in America share a longstanding intolerance of those who are different–worship differently, love differently, look differently, have “different” racial, sexual,ethnic, or even gastronomic backgrounds. Different=bad. Same=good.
Thankfully, things appear to be changing. When Harry Reid is called out for his stupid remarks, that’s a good thing.
It is obvious Murdoch and his posse are capitalizing on America’s worst prejudices. His network’s pablum is easy to digest for many, comforting to millions (apparently) who want to believe that white (men) makes right and Christ (the Luther brand) makes right. The past as the future.
Where have all the flowers gone…
Mike Gold
January 11, 2010 - 5:40 pm
Hmmm. Nice stuff, Pennie. One small quibble — and I just recorded this for my Wednesday Weird Scenes Inside The Gold Mind thingy on getthepointradio.com, so I did some homework. Reid’s remarks were phrased stupidly, assuming he was quoted accurately (it’s a quote of a quote). But what he said was true, and it tracks nicely a quote from Obama in 2005: “One of the scripts for black politicians is that for them to be authentically black they have to somehow offend white people. And then if he puts a multiracial coalition together, he must somehow be compromising the efforts of the African-American community.”
Jack C. Harris
January 11, 2010 - 5:58 pm
Fortunately, or unfortunately (however you want to look at it), everyone is still allowed to voice his or her opinion (no matter how reprehensible it might be to someone else)here in the good old U.S. of A. As far as the world’s religions are concerned, I think they all have much to answer for, since they are (directly or indirectly) the cause for much of the world’s misery. Personally,I’m with Penn Jellette when he says, “Give a man a fish, and you’ll feed him for a day; Give him a religion, and he’ll starve to death while praying for a fish.”
pennie
January 11, 2010 - 6:26 pm
Mike, okay, Reid stated what amounts to political reality. My problem is that he is “supposed” to represent a brighter future, more enlightened awareness. The Hill’s Leader for the charge to a Democratic commitment for positive change, not throwback to a sordid sad past.
Not exactly a huge Reid fan, I got to read his exploits daily when I lived in his state for years. Harry from Searchlight. Someone turn on his lovelight.
I guess the reality here is that Reid represents a something of a bridge. He knows what he is “supposed” to represent, whether he truly believes those causes or not, but is a creature of his generation, culture, and past ties. I’m certainly NOT defending him. There are millions who come from similar roots who are far more enlightened. And after all, he’s a politician not a philosopher or enlightened person.
Politics being what it is, Obama need Reid to pass his administration’s legislation. Reid needs Obama. Clean-up in aisle ten…Tone down the rhetoric…
Jack: I love your Penn Jillette quote.
pennie
January 11, 2010 - 6:29 pm
PS…Lennie nailed it years ago with Religons, Inc. Uhh, that was 1958, 20 years before I was born…}’;>)
R. Maheras
January 11, 2010 - 8:12 pm
Brit Hume’s inanity aside, I think Fox News is absolutely essential for keeping the Democrats on their toes and highlighting THEIR cornucopia of stupidity, which is often ignored or only grudgingly reported by a press that has long since become uncomfortably much too partial.
I generally do not skip a day where I read news on at least four news sites: The New York Times, BBC, CNN, and Fox. Because if, for example, I just got my news from the New York Times, the full breadth of my news picture would be significantly stunted.
This reality is less of a pat on the back of Fox News than it is a condemnation of the legacy news outlets like NBC, CBS, ABC, The New York Times, The L.A. Times, et al.
Russ Rogers
January 11, 2010 - 10:09 pm
Mike, I’m sorry that you’ve had some bad experiences with some Christians. I’m sorry that Brit Hume is an Ass!
That doesn’t give you the right to make blanket, bigoted statements like, “The fact is, a tremendous number of Christians do not believe Buddhism is a real religion.” That’s not a fact, unless you can show me how it’s a fact. Where is your research? What study are you citing? What is the tremendous number? 12? 12 Million? That’s like saying, “We all know there is a huge number of lazy and stupid Irish People.” Nope, we don’t. And even if you knew several lazy and stupid Irish People, even if your ONLY experiences with Irish People was with Lazy, Stupid Irish People, you don’t get the right to say crap like that.
Mike Gold
January 12, 2010 - 8:21 am
JCH — Good to hear from you! I agree, people have every right to voice their opinions, and I specifically stated “I am not suggesting you fire the guy. Not in the least.” And there’s no “but” here: freedom of speech does not relieve you from responsibility for your actions.
Pennie — I’m certainly not a Reid fan myself. I find it funny that the Repubs are trying to paint the guy as racist for saying something (very awkwardly; how dare he say “Negro”) that Obama said himself five years ago. Why hasn’t the GOP jumped on Obama for that? You’re absolutely right about how Reid and Obama need each other, in my opinion.
You’re also absolutely right about Lenny, although he did do an update to Religions Inc. in the 60s about how he used to think organized religion was hypocritical building huge churches in the midst of horrible poverty. His update stated “people feel ‘hey, I live in a shithole, why should I pray in one?”
R. — I wish all Americas actively sought out multiple news sources each day. Ratings and circulations suggest all too many don’t even seek one.
Russ — “I’m sorry that you’ve had some bad experiences with some Christians. I’m sorry that Brit Hume is an Ass!” Well, aren’t we the patronizing little shit.
Yes, I realize you and your friends are the Magic Christians. Fine; I accept that. I have ABSOLUTELY no delusions about influencing your faith-based opinions. Discrimination is a subtle thing, and it is motivated by who’s ox is being gored.
I find missionaries who go to other nations with the purpose of converting the heathens to Christianity to be demons of hate: who the fuck are they to go to Asia or Africa or to an Indian reservation to tell the natives that their faith is horribly wrong and they should convert to Christianity to save their souls. Historically, these efforts have been accompanied with medicine in one hand, an “education” in the other (always a good Christian education), and all too often an army or trade wars behind them.
I think it’s impossible to convince most Christians of the evilness of these efforts. My opinion, but it’s based upon history. I am in TOTAL agreement with Rick Oliver’s comment “The sad fact is a tremendous number of Christians don’t see anything other than their own particular brand of Christianity as a real religion.” So instead of talking with your circle of friends who are bereft of, or feel they are above, their own history, talk to folks on the other side.
I’ve got a LOT of non-Christian friends and associates. I helped build a Buddhist temple in Chicago (at Willow Street and Fern Court, near St. Michael’s Church, which at the time was HORRIFIED that such a place was being built a block north of their lovely church and actively tried to block its construction.). And I’ve got a damn good sense of history. If Christians welcome those who do not believe in their Unigod by welcoming them into their societies and activities, then they’ve kept it nicely to themselves. Perhaps they should hire themselves a good Jewish PR firm.
Perhaps — and I’m being oddly polite here — you’re confusing benign isolation with outright hatred. To my experience, both directly and from reading sundry publications and studies done by Rev. Barry Lynn and Americans United for Separation of Church and State (who is regarded as a lying Christian-hating bastard by the Christian Anti-Discrimination Committee, a Jerry Falwell organization) and other organizations whose work I praise, most such discrimination towards Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, et al is similar to that Rev. Lovejoy pulls on Lisa Simpson: patronizing, condescending, haughty, self-serving, and self-righteous. There’s always that “oh, you’re going to hell” cackle behind it.
And I find it absolutely disgusting — and QUITE bigoted — that SOME Christians think that ANY criticism of their actions is an act of “Christian bashing” and then go to GREAT lengths to provoke a fight.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything, Russ. Organized religion is, by definition, beyond logic and experience. It is faith. The trouble is, one person’s faith is the next person’s attack dog.
Rick Oliver
January 12, 2010 - 10:02 am
Let’s make a distinction between believing that a religion is “real” and believing that a religion is “valid” (i.e. the basic belief system is an accurate representation of the spiritual world or some aspect of the spiritual world).
Clearly, anyone of any particular religious flavor has to conclude that most other religions are not valid, since they contain conflicting beliefs and doctrines. 55% of Americans believe in the Rapture. The Catholic church emphatically does not believe in the Rapture; so 55% of American presumably don’t think much of the validity of the Catholic belief system (and vice versa).
The difference, of course, is in what one religion does in respect to the “validity” of other religions. Hindus and Buddhists mostly don’t care what you believe, because in their belief systems you’ll eventually get it right regardless of what your currently believe.
Most brands of Christianity and Islam, on the other hand, believe that you are doomed to everlasting torment if you don’t agree with them. Therefore, historically, many Christians and Muslims have felt that it is their divine duty to either convince you to convert or kill you in the process.
IMO, it is this belief in eternal damnation that has led to the vast majority of crimes committed in the name of religion.
Mike Gold
January 12, 2010 - 10:09 am
Well put, Rick. And in so few words, too!
Your comments beg the question of how Jews perceive other faiths. It’s the matter of debate. As the old saying goes, you get 10 Jews in a room and ask for an opinion, and you’ll get at least 11 different responses — at first, with more to come.
Marc Alan Fishman
January 12, 2010 - 11:38 am
In hebrew school I was always rife with questions regarding other religious beliefs. As well as questions dealing with the ‘afterlife’, etc. Here’s what I was told:
Jews are fine to live and worship within their own community. They don’t seek to change others minds; they only seek privacy and acceptance to practice and study within their community. When it comes to forming an “opinion” of another religion, it comes down to a debate of theology. Jews don’t immediately believe themselves to be the “end all, be all” theology. How could they? It clearly states in the Torah that humanity is made in the image of “the unigod”(as Mike puts it).. and if by some fashion … some of humanity has formed religious beliefs different than our own… who are we to say they are any more or less “right” than us.
The basic fact is the ten commandments, the golden rule, the general practice for MANY religions is based on the idea of being “good”. That’s enough for us. In essence: “Leave us alone, and feel free to do what you want. And if you want to debate, bring a coffee cake and we’ll debate.”
The best thing I could say on behalf of judiasm: When Kathy, my wife, CHOSE to convert… it was asked of her by a group of Rabbi’s performing the conversion WHY she chose to convert. She was asked privately, and there before these leaders she explained herself. The whole process of conversion was never a question of “do this and you’ll be saved.” it was, is, and forever will be a commitment to live a jewish life:
1. To Raise Jewish Children
2. To uphold the traditions of the Jewish Faith
3. To only by items on sale, clearance, buy 1 get 1, or with a coupon.
4. To bitch about the temperature of any room or building you are in for more than 5 minutes.
5. To silently judge all other people to be not as tasteful as you.
Mike Gold
January 12, 2010 - 12:10 pm
I think you missed one, Marc. “To find a draft in any room, and to find oneself seated underneath that draft.”
Throughout my wanderings in America, I’ve only seen two Jewish groups publicly proselytize. I’ve seen both in New York, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear of them operating elsewhere. One was the Lubavitchers, an exceptionally orthodox group largely dedicated to public, non-sectarian charities. They hold an annual telethon which, given the dancing rabbis and such, is actually a hoot for believers and non-believers alike. It’s broadcast in Los Angeles and New York; maybe other cities.
The other is Jews For Jesus. Never quite figured out their purpose; it seems to me that if Jesus was Jewish, then Christians should be pro-Jewish, so what’s the big deal. I mean, why dis the top dog? But, of course, not all Jews are for Jesus, some think he was just another dude talking the talk (he had lots of competition at the time), or he’s a literary creation.
With respect to both groups, I don’t engage in endless spiritual / historical debate on Manhattan streets. That’s what the internet is for.
Marc Alan Fishman
January 12, 2010 - 12:52 pm
Simply put: A “Jew” who believes Jesus was the son of Unigod… is a Christian. They can keep kosher all they like. They can read the torah… they can even kvetch at the television… but believing that Jesus was any more than a really nice guy with some good points to make… kinda kick you outta the “Real Jews”… so-to-speak.
Mike Gold
January 12, 2010 - 12:57 pm
No offense meant, Marc, but that’s the point where organized religion and I split. It’s not my lookout. I don’t like country club mentalities. My assumption (which could be incorrect) is that J4J has its own temples/churches/covens/whatever. My assumption is that Jewish temples, congregations and synagogues welcome people of all faiths to sit in and even argue… make that “discuss”… things over with the rabbis, as do the Real Jews.
Neil C.
January 12, 2010 - 1:57 pm
I remember Howard Stern saying the people who became Jews for Jesus are the ones who sat in the back of the temple during the high holidays and never got any attention. Or as a comedian once said, “Jews for Jesus” is like “Vegetarians for Meat.”
MOTU
January 12, 2010 - 4:04 pm
You know as Master Of The Universe I try not to get involved in the meddling of mortals. However I see my silence regarding certain matters of the stupid has caused certain people to revel in their stupidity.
sigh
Well, let me clear up some things with my Master Of The Universe 10 commandments.
1. Thou shall not consider Fox news a news network.
2. Thou shall know that anyone who considers Fox news a news network shall be known as Stupid Assholes
3.Thou may worship anyone you want.
4. Thou shall mind your mother fucking business and keep your mother fucking criticisms of anyone’s else’s faith to yourself.
5. Thou shall not consider Sarah Palin…period.
6. Thou shall let people do what the fuck they want in their own homes.
7. If you are a married leader of a huge church and like to spend your evening smoking meth and having gay sex ( witch you denounce as an abomination and sin against God) thou shall not lie to the news media and then say you were ‘cured’ of the Gay problem.
8. Thou shall not ( VANITY FAIR) compare Tiger Woods to O. J. Simpson when the only thing they have in common is being black and NOTHING else you racist piece of elitist shit.
9. FUCK THE GOP.
10.Sorry…THOU shall FUCK THE GOP.
pennie
January 12, 2010 - 4:55 pm
MOTU,
“5. Thou shall not consider Sarah Palin…period.”
Man, that’s Uggggglee!
I would never consider Sarah Palin’s period!
Nor her comma, apostrophe, colon OR semi-colon. Especially her colon!
“0.Sorry…THOU shall FUCK THE GOP.”
That’s even worse than above. I would NEVER do that!!! That’s bestiality!!!!!
Marc Alan Fishman
January 12, 2010 - 7:53 pm
@Mike, yeah, no offense taken. I’m not a country club jew. I like open debate any time. J4J get on my not-so-good-side because they were ALL OVER my college campus, and chose never to discuss things with me, as much as tell me I was hell bound. Silly, ain’t it?
@MOTU… you sold me. Where’s the church? When do we meet? Can I bring the wine?
Russ Rogers
January 12, 2010 - 7:58 pm
Mike, I never claimed to be “Magic.” I never said that my friends were “Magic.” “Magic Christian” makes me sound like I’m a leprechaun or a pixie. It seems a little dismissive, almost insulting. Did you mean it that way?
I just said that I’m a Christian. And I have always considered Buddhism an important Religion. I also have never considered atheists sub-human. I have trouble imagining intelligent people seriously holding those narrow-mined views. I think you and I can agree on that, Mike.
But, the attitudes that you assume MOST Christians have are NOT my attitudes, they aren’t even attitudes that I consider very “Christ-like,” not very Christian. So if make claims that MOST Christians or even a TREMENDOUS NUMBER of Christians are like that, I would like to see some statistics or proof other than, “Well that’s how I feel about it and it’s my column, so there!” I’m not going to “take it on faith,” Mike, just because you said so, and you’re more famous and a better writer than me. I understand that you are angry, Mike. But your anger doesn’t justify your blanket bigotry. And agreeing with Rick Oliver isn’t a solid argument either. Yes, he’s a smart guy, but what makes him an authority on this subject?
I’m not Catholic, but I don’t think Mother Theresa was a Demon of Hate. I think St. Jude’s Childrens Hospital helps a lot of sick children without bankrupting their parents. I don’t think Danny Thomas was a Demon of Hate either. Yes, there has been a lot of crap done in the name of Christianity and Islam and Judaism and a lot of other Religions. But the evil that has been done in Christ’s name shouldn’t blind you to any and all good that has been done in His name as well.
Some missionaries hand out medicine and mosquito nets simply because people are dying. Some missionaries teach just because there are people who might live better if only they had more education. Some feed the hungry, treat the infirm or visit those in prison just because they are far better Christians than me. Not all Christian Charity comes with a sales pitch attatched. Yes, there have been missionaries who have been “Demons of Hate” (I’m not blind to history or the failures of the Church), but that is certainly not the goal of mission work. Not ALL missionaries are Demons of Hate and it’s total bullshit that your bigotry brands them ALL that way.
Maybe I take your insults personally because my Grandfather was a Presbyterian Minister. He died three months before I was born; but legend has it, he was also a pretty good guy.
Mike, I agreed with you, Brit Hume was an Ass. I understand that he is a Christian and that you’ve seen many Christians be total butt-heads. I’m not being insular or denying that. But I disagreed with you, because I don’t think Mr. Hume is representative of the Christian Community in general. He certainly doesn’t represent me. And your statements seemed to imply that. I was not trying to provoke a fight. All I asked for were some statistics, some real numbers (not faith, not insults, real numbers) to back up your claims. Instead you backed up your words with more anecdotes and even more vitriol, spewing more venom and bile. Anecdotes, ad hominem attacks and insults are not studies and statistics. Insults are not logical arguments; they are the opposite.
Mike, you can’t fight what you see as cultural insensitivity with even MORE cultural insensitivity! It’s muddies up whatever intelligent points you have to make with utter angry bullshit. At some point the only sane way to create justice, compassion, and peace is through mutual understanding. Branding people “Demons of Hate” is hardly the start of a peaceful dialog or mutual understanding.
Reg
January 13, 2010 - 12:59 am
Mike, Mike, Mike… 😀
I’d actually decided to sit this one out… but …
A couple of things to establish before wading into the fray.
1.I really respect how you’ve put skin in the battle to make the world better.
2. I’d very much like to opportunity chew the fat with you at a tea and cookie soiree… I think it would be tons of fun…and quite possibly resulting in a few broken cups.
3..I’m just presenting rebuttal to opinions and/or assertions that I disagree with…so let there be peace.
What I find a bit disconcerting is the fairly high and consistent level of expressed animosity that you and several others seem to have against religion (with Christianity being the primary target). And of course that’s your prerogative. What’s troubling to me is your habit of ascribing the most negative hyperbole to those who profess an adherence to Christian principals when it’s not accurate or warranted. In your latest article you say that Hume’s commentary was ‘…bigoted babble which reflected a platform of religious hatred.’
C’mon man. How in the world do you make the leap that his expressed opinion from the standpoint of his faith was both intolerant of and advocated hatred against Buddhism? Did Hume use the appropriate forum wherein to express his opinion? That’s certainly up for debate. But the comments you made are right up there with your statement which implied that it’s par for the course that ‘ fundamentalists believe killing abortion workers is just part of Christian duty.’ That’s not the type of balanced commentary that I would expect from a man as resourceful, intelligent, and committed to the cause of humanity that you’ve established your life to be based upon. In truth, there are times when some of your comments have come uncomfortably close to reflecting the type of intolerant and bigoted mindsets of those real enemies of humanity that you and others in this forum have spent their lives fighting against. And you’re a far better man than that.
As I offered in a previous rebuttal, you (and other atheists) have a tendency to readily ignore or give a hand wave to the fact that a lion’s share (arguably the majority) of beneficial social programs that we enjoy in this country were initiated by those who professed and walked out lives based on their Christian faith. Were they perfect? Were they without flaws? Absolutely not. As a matter of fact, I believe that it is written…”There is none righteous, no, not one.” But they were motivated to put their faith into action for the benefit of their fellow humans. How can that truth be so easily and readily ignored?
Isn’t it worth noting that the overwhelming majority of moral acts, conditions, laws and statutes that have laid the groundwork for humankind’s advancement have all come out of a religious framing? No matter the culture? Whether it’s the First Nations’ belief in the Great Spirit, the Bantu’ peoples belief in One Supreme God and the ancestor worship that constitutes their guardians of morality, to the ancient Egyptians, Assyrians, Jews, Hindus, etc.. each culture was rooted in a belief in G-d or gods and as such developed moral codes to protect and/or lend guidance and support to the people. Please provide an example of an atheistic culture that has done the same. I can’t think of one.
You have your reasons that you don’t believe in G-d or gods.That’s cool. I respect that. I’d like to think that I’ve exhibited sufficient evidence to support the fact that I’m a fairly critical thinker. And as such I have evidential and experiential reasons that establishes why I do believe in G-d.
I’m always confused by the intensity of emotion that most atheists seem to bring to the topic of faith. Especially as it pertains to Christianity. And I always have to wonder why that is. I mean is it because of the core of the message is ‘we’ don’t want ‘you’ (a perfect stranger) to end up in what we believe to be an eternally very, very bad place and take the egregiously offensive act of warning you? ( By the way, the truth of the matter is, the vast majority of Christians rarely, if ever evangelize, so the likelihood of an atheist or otherwise non believer being on the receiving end of a personal and genuine conversation along those lines is statistically pretty small).
I’ve been a vegetarian for over twenty years. If one of those guys that sells wholesale meat out the back of a truck rings my doorbell to seduce me with the joys of flesh, I’m gonna politely say ‘Thanks but no thanks… I’m not interested and close the door. And if my neighbors like to grill every other day because they’re one step removed from Neantherdals and I have to smell the oink flesh sizzling, I’m not going to beat them over the head with Dick Gregory’s Cooking with Mother Nature. But, if I’ve read reports that these guys have been linked to e-coli poisoning and I see the truck headed next door to my neighbors and I don’t warn them, what does that say about me and my morality? Surely you wouldn’t say that I was expressing hatred against meat eaters would you if I alerted them to the danger of eating the meat, would you?
As far as Hume is concerned…did he proselytze? Yep. But according to the definition, so do you. Every day and every time you post an article expressing your views. And so do I. And so does the mOTu every time he espouses the wonders of Asian women. 😀
And finally, in respect to Religious Freedom…. .you bet your round mound we are blessed to have it here. And you ‘d best believe that were we living under the type of ‘freedom of expression’ as practiced in predominantly Muslim nations, and you’d shared the type of sentiments against ‘lam as you have against Christianity in a public forum, you’d likely be in hiding to escape a f ^ twa that had been placed on your head… So yeah… it’s good to be in the US of A.
Martha Thomases
January 13, 2010 - 6:21 am
Reg said, ( By the way, the truth of the matter is, the vast majority of Christians rarely, if ever evangelize, so the likelihood of an atheist or otherwise non believer being on the receiving end of a personal and genuine conversation along those lines is statistically pretty small).
And yet, amazingly, it has happened to me more than a dozen times (not including some awkward moments at the boarding school). And it also happened frequently to many, many of the people with whom I grew up. I don’t think Youngstown, Ohio was a hotbed of evangelical missionaries, so I infer that it’s something that’s rather common. Also, they seem to favor Washington Square Park, which I’ve lived near for almost 35 years, and like to walk through because it is pretty.
Most Christians may not proselytize, but those that do are extremely aggressive. And insulting.
Mike Gold
January 13, 2010 - 8:17 am
Russ: actually, Magic Christian is one of my favorite books and movies. It was a reference to that, although I was aware that those who might be unfamiliar with the source material might see it differently. Sophistry is a living.
I’m a better writer than you? Thank you, and I mean that, although I’m not certain I’d agree. As for famous, I’m real famous inside our donut shop. (Why did I get a spelling error on the word “donut”? If there’s one word I know how to spell…) In the real world, I’m that socialist writer from the 1930s. And that wasn’t even his real name. Although we had mutual friends in the IWW. And Studs Terkel, who was merely an acquaintance.
Mother Teresa? Yeah, good person. Outside of her views on a few matters like abortion. Outside of that, I wish everybody could be like her. Well, when she was alive. Danny Thomas was pretty cool too. Absolutely. And we can probably fill the ether with a list of good Christians, and still leave a lot out.
But, you’re part of the majority class here. The overwhelming majority class. In a field that, as noted better by others on this thread, is by definition discriminatory: we have the Answer, you do not, but I like you anyway. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in our shoes. When I was a kid growing up in the overwhelmingly Catholic Chicago, I got the shit beaten out of me (until I was 9, when I learned how to defend myself) for being a Christ-killer. In high school I was promoted to being “one of the good ones.” I guess that means I didn’t kill Christ lately, but when he does come back they’re keeping an eye on me.
There’s nothing new here, and absolutely nothing exclusive to my experience in America as a non-Christian. Talk to other non-Christians in a discussion-like setting and you’ll hear the same thing. There’s tons and tons of extremely subtle discrimination out there, and it would be nice if the Majority Faith would accept this and try to mitigate it somewhat. That’s why Buddhism and Hindu appeal to me: they can accept other people’s religious philosophies.
Until that happens, there’s just no way the Majority Faith will appreciate the oppressive impact it has on those who do not believe their way.
Mutual understanding is a wonderful goal. But all my years of political work has taught me that sometimes you’ve got to shake things up — sometimes aggressively — in order to get attention. One hand Dr. King, the other hand Malcolm X. I’m fine with that.
Mike Gold
January 13, 2010 - 8:54 am
Reg: After a long, long time, I finally understood why so many of my black friends said that all people, by their very experiences of growing up, are tainted by racism. As an activist, I’ve long believed in what Eldridge Cleaver said in 1968: If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. This, to me, applies to religion as well. It doesn’t get a pass simply because it’s based upon faith and therefore not subject to the laws of logic and proof.
Hume’s statement was a statement of hatred because, given his position and his platform, it fuels these attitudes. He’s pouring gasoline on a fire. And for crying out loud, he was using this platform to convert a golfer who was screwing around. The whole act of conversion is offensive to those of us who have been subjected to such practices, both subtly and directly, all our lives. In 8th grade I flunked a math test because the answer to one question was “Jesus Christ” and I misspelled the answer. Let’s wonder just how the answer to any question on a public school math test could be “Jesus Christ” in the first place, let alone why I should flunk the entire exam because I misspelled his name. I did take up the matter with the school principal, and that put me on every Christian teachers’ shit list until I graduated later that year.
I would never mean to imply that ALL peoples within any LARGE catagory believe exactly the same way, and if I came off that way, I apologize. But the Christian Fundamentalist policy of anti-abortion is well publicized, and the response “well, murder is wrong but so is killing the unborn” as a defense is, to me, disgusting. Either murder is wrong or it’s not. I have never heard or read of a Fundamentalist clearly and cleanly rejecting this position.
You say “each culture was rooted in a belief in G-d or gods and as such developed moral codes to protect and/or lend guidance and support to the people. Please provide an example of an atheistic culture that has done the same.” This illustrates my point exactly about benign discrimination. We don’t have to. These moral philosophies were well established long, long before the creation of the Unigod. There was nothing new in the Ten Commandments.
You say “Isn’t it worth noting that the overwhelming majority of moral acts, conditions, laws and statutes that have laid the groundwork for humankind’s advancement have all come out of a religious framing?” I say I have a problem with that. A serious problem. Morality and the religious fervor of the moment have had nothing to do with one another. Violence, theft, and murder (et al) were wrong long before the creation of the Unigod and, by the way, organized religion of all sorts excels at violence, theft and murder. You say “the vast majority of Christians rarely, if ever evangelize, so the likelihood of an atheist or otherwise non believer being on the receiving end of a personal and genuine conversation along those lines is statistically pretty small.” That is not my experience. That is not Martha’s experience. Perhaps I’m refusing to split hairs here, but to me the only difference between evangelizing, proselytizing, and organizing is the degree of aggressive behavior. If you say you’re not interested, they should respect that and move on. Instead, to my experience and that of my cohorts, they take this as a challenge and press more aggressively.
Interestingly, the Scientologists who headquartered a block away from me when I was living in Evanston IL understood this. Although I think I burned out their E-Meter.
You’re a vegetarian? Oh, oh. OK, I can deal with that. Martha’s a vegetarian. Some of my best friends are vegetarians. But to use your meat analogy, if religious organizers exhibited the same attitude to denote regarding the meat sellers, this discussion would not be taking place. Perhaps, as I told Russ, you have to be on the other side to understand how pervasive this is.
“As far as Hume is concerned…did he proselytze? Yep. But according to the definition, so do you.” Yes, I do. But I don’t do so on what is reputed to be a fair and balanced news station, and I’m not the most visibly credentialed “journalist” (I share Don Thompson’s distaste for that word) on that news station. And, again, I didn’t say Hume should be taken off the air or punished; he said what he had to say, and I did too.
I’m as American as they come. Honest. Ask my close conservative, right-wing friends, which (by the way) includes at least two CIA agents. In fact, I believe my philosophies tend to be genuinely textbook pre-Neocon conservative. I surprised my daughter on New Year’s Eve when I was almost moved to tears during the singning of the Star Spangled Banner at the Blackhawks / Devils game. And yet I believe that true freedom of religion does not exist in America. I’ve documented why in detail in this thread, and elsewhere. Yeah, we’re better than those nations that espouse religious totalitarianism, and in addition to many Muslim countries that includes, in my book, Israel and the Soviet Union. And the United States of America.
But, among a great many other positions, there’s one more thing we can agree on, and again, I quote you directly: “it’s good to be in the US of A.”
Reg
January 13, 2010 - 11:58 am
Respect, bro.
Marc Alan Fishman
January 13, 2010 - 12:51 pm
Word. And kudos to Mike, Reg, Russ, Martha, etc. who made this thread a barn burner!
Reg
January 13, 2010 - 12:51 pm
Martha…I’m of course very sorry and disappointed that your encounters with evangelistic minded Christians have been so negative. And that those individuals apparently took your rejection of their (what I certainly hope were sensitively framed) invitations personally and consequently failed to follow the paraphrased instructions that says ..”If your words aren’t received, shake it off and keep moving.”
Martha said, “And yet, amazingly, it has happened to me more than a dozen times (not including some awkward moments at the boarding school). And it also happened frequently to many, many of the people with whom I grew up”
I find that very interesting and surprising. My own experience, as well as those recounted from several friends, of whom I’ve asked whether they had been ‘witnessed to’ has been exactly the opposite. Until my own conversion as an adult, I do not recall ever being approached by a co-worker, close or extended family member, or stranger with the Gospel message. Even though I was raised in the church, I came to a relational acknowledgment and personal acceptance thru the fires of a personal crisis.
Because of so many wonderful reasons not able to be adequately expressed in this forum, I have in the past, and will continue to ‘ask the question’. But not in the sense of putting a notch in my belt or as a legalistic requirement. I very much strive to wait for that ‘moment of prompting’ and make a gentle and respectful inquiry. If the door is opened I walk in…and participate in an amazing and beautiful appointment… but if the door is shut, then I fully respect that person’s decision. If the motivation and intent is truly bound in love, such encounters should cause no injury to either party.
Shalom.
Mike Gold
January 13, 2010 - 12:53 pm
Reg: That’s because you are a reasonable person whose fervor is mitigated by manners. Not everybody’s like that; a pity, but we learn from you. And I strive to.
Martha Thomases
January 13, 2010 - 3:27 pm
@Reg: My childhood friend, Jill, used to tell me she would frequently let the “Jesus freaks” convert her because “it made them so happy.”
When someone asks me if I’ve been saved, or if I know Jesus, I tell them “No” and keep walking. Sometimes they follow me, sometimes they don’t. No matter what they do, I think it’s rude.
When they’ve finished with seeking justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly, they can worry about my immortal soul. Until then, leave me alone.
I’m an adult. I live in this country, in which I’m surrounded by churches and other houses of worship, and my money says “In God We Trust.” In deference to my ancestors, who were persecuted – sometimes to the death – because of their religion, I identify myself as Jewish. It is not likely that I grew to my majority without hearing something about Jesus. I have chosen not to worship him.
Reg
January 13, 2010 - 3:33 pm
Martha…I hear you well. Respect.
Rick Oliver
January 14, 2010 - 9:23 am
@Reg:
Just to follow up on one Mike’s responses, you say:
“each culture was rooted in a belief in G-d or gods and as such developed moral codes to protect and/or lend guidance and support to the people. Please provide an example of an atheistic culture that has done the same.”
This is a specious and perhaps intentionally disingenuous argument. As you are probably aware, in the vast majority of early cultures where the foundations for our current moral codes were fashioned, there was typically virtually no difference between religious and civil authority, and where the civil part of that authority was weak, the religious stick was often used to get the population to tow the line.
We evolved from social creatures that had their own rules for maintaining a coherent social structure, not the least of which was a fairly strong (and arguably mostly instinctual) taboo against murdering members of your own group.
As human societies evolved and became more sophisticated, they evolved more sophisticated moral standards that were then codified into laws. Without many of these laws, humans could not function as a society — but because we are social animals we developed the necessary morally based laws to prevent our societies from disintegrating.
The fact that the people promulgating these laws also often happened to be religious leaders is because, as I said before, the religious and civil leaders were typically the same people. The fact that religious leaders had so much influence is not a testament to the power of their god(s); it is a testatment to the need of intelligent but ignorant beings to provide explanations for what was to them inexplicable. What makes the sun go up? God. What makes rain? God. Where did we come from? God.
We, of course, have better answers for those questions now. But the early civilizations did not. So religion had an inordinate influence over the lives of those people. But take away religion, and they probably still would have come up with the same basic social contract, since we are hard-wired to operate in a social environment.
Alan Coil
January 14, 2010 - 12:33 pm
I believe dogs are the true supreme beings in the universe.
Why, then, do we believe in a god?
I blame the first dyslexic, dog dammit.
Reg
January 14, 2010 - 3:00 pm
@ Rick,
You raise good rebuttal points, and I look to address several elements of your response in the near term, but for right now I’ve got other things on my mind. Thanks.
Russ Rogers
January 14, 2010 - 3:45 pm
Y’know, Mike. Here I am arguing that Christians are not “Demons of Hate”, that there aren’t a tremendous number of myopic, self-centered cretins in the fold, and what happens? Pat Robertson comes out and says the most stupid, hateful, ignorant, un-Christian thing I can imagine about the disaster in Haiti. Pat Robertson makes Brit Hume seem subtle and diplomatic. I’m SO ashamed to have Robertson as my “Brother in Christ.” Jesus, what a freakin’ Demon of Hate!
Robertson has said some pretty contemptible, silly and ignorant stuff in the past, but he generally doesn’t get the opportunity to do it on the heals of tens of thousands of innocents dying.
Mike, you were right, I was wrong. Christianity is club overflowing with dip-shits! It’s too late for me. I’m not going to quit the club. I’ll stay and try to change it from within. But, for what it’s worth, I’m sorry. Sorry for Hume, sorry for the bully Catholic kids from your childhood and today, most ashamed and sorry to be associated with Pat Robertson. Say whatever you want about Christians. We deserve it.
Mike Gold
January 14, 2010 - 4:26 pm
Russ: I don’t regard Pat and Brit as representatives of all Christians, or even most Christians, and certainly not of humanity. There’s just enough of them to make life suck for a little while.
Although I still haven’t recovered from the great Teletubbies Conspiracy.
Marc Alan Fishman
January 15, 2010 - 10:22 am
Tinky Winky taught me that it’s ok to love another Teletubby. It’s not a choice, it’s genetic.