Wedding Bell Blues by Martha Thomases: Brilliant Disguise
November 15, 2008 Martha Thomases 56 Comments
Brilliant Disguise
by Martha Thomases

© DC Comics
Would the marriage of Superman and Lois Lane be legal in California? After all, they can’t have children. They aren’t even the same species. Does Rick Santorum know about this?
What about Wonder Woman? She’s made out of clay, created by her single mother. Did Hippolyta remember to make ovaries?
Why does this matter? The non-religious arguments against gay marriage (the only ones that should matter legally, since there is separation of church and state in this country) focus on the biology. Sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is the only way to produce children, and society has an interest in continuing the human race through childbirth. Children are best cared for by parents in a familial environment, rather than letting them roam the street, crawling into trashcans looking for food. Sure, there may have been wolves that raised human infants in the past, but there is a real shortage of wolf packs in our cities.
However, there are many heterosexual couples who, for a variety of reasons, cannot reproduce. For example, I’m too old to have another baby, and our son is grown up and on his own. And yet, my marriage is legal. Even though my husband could still father another child (and he’s very, very good at it), no one is suggesting that we divorce.
Of course, we are already married, so maybe our marriage has been (you should pardon the expression) grandfathered in. What about new marriages?
After my mother died, my father married a woman who had also been recently widowed. She was too old to have more children. Yet, because the state did not involve itself in such issues, they created a family that included her three daughters, my sister and myself. Time passed, and there are now a gaggle of nieces and nephews. The love between my father and my stepmother is what created this family, not blood ties.
The concept of marriage has changed over and over again since Biblical times. Marriage has been a way to transfer property, to conquer enemy territory, to assure peace. Women entered into marriage and surrendered their rights to keep a bank account, to decide when they wanted to have sex, even to self-defense. Young girls could be married off to older men, with no right to refuse. It’s because marriage changes with society that these things are no longer true.
However, none of these changes came about because people could vote. They happened because we believe in the rule of law, and that the law protects the rights of everyone equally. In this country, we do not vote on the civil rights of others. If we did, it’s unlikely that slavery would have ended, or that African Americans and women could vote. The measure of a democracy is not that people get to vote (although that’s important) but that the rights of the minority are protected.
Those who supported Proposition 8 argued that their right to observe their religions was threatened by gay marriage. I don’t know what religion they’re talking about. No church, synagogue, mosque or temple would be forced to perform religious rituals for people acting counter to the teachings of those institutions. However, they could not prevent others from doing something with which they disagree. For example, when I married my husband, who is not Jewish, we were married in my parents’ synagogue, because that congregation had no problem with mixed marriages. However, there are other, more orthodox synagogues that would not have approved of us. No state agency forces them to change their policies. Similarly, no spiritual agency should force the state to change the law.
Not if you want to eat bacon.
Others say that allowing gay people to marry is a threat to their own marriages. I don’t know why this is. No one checks up on me to see what sex acts are going on in my bedroom (and please don’t – I’m self-conscious enough). No one oversees my marital spats, or the way we divide up the chores. Why should it make any difference how other couples do these things?
If anything cheapens marriage, it’s the assumption that it’s all about sex. Forcing teenagers to marry because their parents believe in abstinence only education is a bigger insult.
Don’t get me wrong – sex is important, but it’s not everything. Marriage is also the love, the patience, the petty, private jokes, sharing the remote control. It’s tolerating foibles, laughing at the gray hairs, and joint junk mail. It’s being in it for the long haul, and being a stabilizing element in the larger community. These traits are neither gay nor straight, but they’re valuable, and we need more of them.
—
Martha Thomases, Media Goddess, is fortunate enough to be married to someone who appreciates the value of flattery.
Miss Lasko-Gross
November 15, 2008 - 7:37 am
Well put Martha! I’ve NEVER heard an argument against gay marriage that wasn’t irrational and based on fear. Society has “survived” interracial marriage and mixed marriages like yours (and my own)
And as for the fertility argument, is the world dangerously underpopulated?
Howard Cruse
November 15, 2008 - 8:22 am
Thanks for an eloquent and right-on column, Martha. In half an hour Eddie will begin our drive to Northampton to participate in one of the demonstrations protesting California’s passage of Proposition 8 that will begin in cities in every state of the nation at 1:30 this afternoon.
Issues of a minority’s equal protection under the law should never be decided by majority vote. As an Alabama native I well remember the rationalizations that kept racial segregation in force there when I was a kid, and I can guarantee that, had the majority of white citizens whose eyes were clouded by conscious or unconscious prejudice been allowed to decide the fate of its African-American neighbors, the races would still be forced to drink from separate water fountains today.
Eddie and I are legally married here in Massachusetts, but we automatically become unmarried if we leave the safe spaces of New England, and thanks to national legislators who bowed to their own prejudices by passing the Defense of Marriage Act (signed into law by a “pro-gay” President Clinton), our marriage is not even recognized as valid by the Federal Government even here in Massachusetts.
The institutionalized racial injustices that the old South once perpetuated now seem distant, but they were defended at the time by many, including virtually all Southern churches. That “activist courts” ultimately stepped in to overrule oppression by a privileged majority led to outcomes that are not viewed as great steps forward by all but today’s KKK and white supremacist fringe.
Gays and right-thinking straights across the country should demand that the California Supreme Court undo this election’s codification of prejudice.
Thanks for saying what needs to be said, Martha.
pennie
November 15, 2008 - 8:23 am
You GO girl!
There is so much here I”ll have to attempt to apply a modicum of self-restraint
This last elections helped make two things clear for me: How a brilliantly conceived and well-organized/orchestrated and energetic grassroots campaign can succeed using reasonable presentations and patience as core values. Then there was the opposite in California.
Am I angered by the results of the latter?
You bet! I take personal offense.
Do I recognize the inherent failures, the reasons why?
Sadly, yes.
Where was all of this recent activism PRIOR to the Prop H8 vote?
When the nominal leader of the fight against the initiative appears to be Brad Pitt, what does that say? Thank you, Mr. Pitt but there are scores of GLBT organizations, that sat on their collective derrières. The most organized and active groups in this scenario: The Mormon and Catholic churches. Apparently they STILL never got the memo about this separation concept using their time-honored arguments based on fear, control, and that real crowd pleaser: good ole sinful homophobia.
“Family values?”
Phoooooey!
This has as much to do with “Family Values” as Sarah Palin to articulate political philosophy.
Like you Martha, Keith Olbermann did a great job the other night on MSNBC.The video is on their site. Check it out. A brief but poignant excerpt:
“And yet to me this vote is horrible. Horrible. Because this isn’t about yelling, and this isn’t about politics. This is about the human heart, and if that sounds corny, so be it….You are asked now, by your country, and perhaps by your creator, to stand on one side or another. You are asked now to stand, not on a question of politics, not on a question of religion, not on a question of gay or straight. You are asked now to stand, on a question of love. All you need do is stand, and let the tiny ember of love meet its own fate….This is the second time in ten days I find myself concluding by turning to, of all things, the closing plea for mercy by Clarence Darrow in a murder trial.But what he said, fits what is really at the heart of this:
“I was reading last night of the aspiration of the old Persian poet, Omar-Khayyam,” he told the judge. It appealed to me as the highest that I can vision. I wish it was in my heart, and I wish it was in the hearts of all: So I be written in the Book of Love; I do not care about that Book above. Erase my name, or write it as you will, So I be written in the Book of Love.””
Martha, I’ll stop venting. You nailed it so well. All of it–and nice Laura Nyro touch. From my heart: Thanks.
pennie
John Tebbel
November 15, 2008 - 8:52 am
Big flaw in the so-called progressive constitutions of the western states; any energized electoral majority can do whatever it wants. Look out behind you.
Rick
November 15, 2008 - 12:31 pm
I’m saddened when a state votes in favor of being to violate my civil rights because I’m gay.
I’ve been in a relationship with the same man for 20 years now.
Yet there are fewer and fewer ‘married’ couples who make past a few years these days.
I guess the length of my relationship it that ‘threat to the sanctity of marriage’ people use as their argument against same sex marriage, huh?
Jeremiah Avery
November 15, 2008 - 12:59 pm
With the current state of the economy and people losing their homes, suffering from hunger and other maladies, wouldn’t it have been more in tune with the supposed teachings of these “devout” people to use the millions of dollars they spent on promoting bigotry to help others instead? Isn’t that what the whole “love thy neighbor” notion is supposed to entail?
Whether it’s Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve, the world isn’t going to end. It must be very claustrophobic inside their narrow minds.
Howard Cruse
November 15, 2008 - 1:39 pm
Now that Eddie and I are back back from today’s Northampton demo, which was invigorating, I see that my earlier post, submitted hurriedly, included an unfortunate typo. I’m sure that the context would make my intended meaning clear, but for the record: when I wrote: “That “activist courts” ultimately stepped in to overrule oppression by a privileged majority led to outcomes that are not viewed as great steps forward by all but today’s KKK and white supremacist fringe,” I MEANT to write that the outcomes in question “are NOW viewed as great steps forward by all but today’s KKK and white supremacist fringe.”
The Other Frank Miller
November 15, 2008 - 2:08 pm
Sometimes, Martha, I think you should be the next Chief Justice (“Just-Ess?” “Just As?”) of the Supreme Court. Eloquently argued, of course.
The people who want their faith made the law of the land should try living in a real theocracy for a while. I think some time in the Middle East, where they would suddenly be the minority, would teach them a lot.
James
November 15, 2008 - 4:07 pm
Amen.
R. Maheras
November 15, 2008 - 7:01 pm
I rarely talk about the topic of gay marriage for a couple of reasons. First, I don’t normally stick my nose into other people’s private business. Second, unless one has no reservations about changing the traditional definition of marriage, one is portrayed by GLBT community as ignorant, irrationally fearful, a religious fanatic, or a bigot. Some who are openly opposed to gay marriage are even being charged with hate crimes.
That’s probably why one almost never hears an open debate amongst rational human beings about the pros or cons of changing the traditional definition of marriage. Who wants to go to jail for giving an honest opinion?
The current situation in California regarding Proposition 8 is a good example. People who were against gay marriage are being harassed, pilloried, and black-listed. In short, the tactics and hysteria by some of the more militant members of the GLBT community have been so McCarthyistic, I find it appalling.
So exactly what is my opinion about gay marriage?
Simple: I find it problematic, because to change the traditional definition of marriage it has to… I repeat has to… open the door to other types of consenting adult relationships besides gay or lesbian relationships.
Once, out of “fairness,” we jettison the traditional religion-based homosexual/lesbian taboos surrounding marriage, there is absolutely no compelling, logical reason not to strip away ALL such religion-based taboos.
In other words, to be fair, marriage would have to be legal between any consenting adults – period.
A man could marry a man, a mother could marry her son, and a woman could marry six men. Every one of these arrangements is currently illegal in the United States only because of traditional societal taboos based on the past religious teachings of this country’s dominant Judeo-Christian religions. If you arbitrarily strip away one religion-based taboo (which is what the gay marriage movement is asking us to do), you must, in fairness, strip them all away.
Yes, even inbreeding. After all, same-sex couples, like many heterosexual couples, do not have sex to procreate. Thus, these days, if related adults marry and a pregnancy does occur, an easy genetic test can be done, and if there are problems with the fetus, it can simply be aborted.
I once told a gay friend that I thought the majority of people world-wide would lose their aversion to re-defining the traditional definition of marriage when all restrooms and locker rooms in the world became co-ed.
But in a world where girls have acid thrown in their faces for just wanted to go to school, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
Joe in Philly
November 15, 2008 - 11:20 pm
Martha, well said, as always. And then there’s R. Maheras’ pathetic screed, which alleges all sorts of horrible things supposedly happening to people who don’t support equal rights for all people. And then he/she says: “Simple: I find it problematic, because to change the traditional definition of marriage it has to…I repeat has to…open the door to other types of consenting adult relationships besides gay or lesbian relationships.” He or she then goes on to talk about incest and polygamy. I’m surprised he/she didn’t bring up Rick Santorum’s “man-on-dog” argument, because it’s the same bullshit argument.
And besides, there is NO traditional definition of marriage. It has changed many, many times over the centuries. Haven’t you been paying attention?
R. Maheras
November 16, 2008 - 1:04 am
Actually, what’s pathetic is your dismissal of simple logic.
I give you facts, and you call it a screed.
If there is “no traditional definition of marriage” then why is there even a same gender marriage debate?
And you’d have far more historical ammunition arguing a pro-polygamy or pro-incest marriage platform than you would arguing a pro same-sex platform. At least in the former cases you’d have ample precedent.
The fact remains that if the basic laws of marriage in this country are to be changed, the only fair way to go is to just make marriage allowable between any consenting adults.
Any other argument just isn’t logical.
Uncle Robbie
November 16, 2008 - 1:07 am
Thanks you, Martha. It’s refreshing to hear a cogent and supportive position from the wilds of Heterosexualia.
Uncle Robbie
November 16, 2008 - 1:10 am
R. Maheras wrote:
So exactly what is my opinion about gay marriage?
Believe it or not, pupcake, no one cares. So far you’ve proven that your many opinions aren’t in the least bit relevant, helpful, or welcome. Take your olde time macho religious bigotry elsewhere.
Jim
November 16, 2008 - 3:09 am
Yikes. I really don’t think Mr./Ms. Maheras was being bigoted or typing propaganda or anything like that. And there’s really no need to be insulting, I mean, it IS the Internet, but c’mon. But pupcake is just funny to say, so, points to Uncle Robbie for creativity.
I mean, I may not agree with the argument, but it’s logically sound. Now, I think that the public would NOT be clamoring to legalize incestous or polyamorous relationships like it has been for same-sex marriages; that’s where I see that argument failing. But hey, if society wanted to be consistent and fair, then a consenting relationship between any adults would have to be legalized.
Again, I don’t think that legalizing gay marriage would cause a barrage of incestuous or beastial relationships, (I voted “No on 8”, those of you preparing to call me a religious hack), but Mr./Ms. Maheras was making a sound point based on logic, fairness, and consistency within the law. So calling him/her bigoted and his/her argument hate speech is a little insane.
pennie
November 16, 2008 - 5:37 am
Mr/Ms. Maheras,
Your foundation is shaky. It is one that others use when they want to obfuscate the gay marriage issue–The olde kitchen sink ploy akin to the dread “homosexual agenda.” Wait…actually, there IS a homosexual agenda. It is called equal rights.
As a proud card-carrying member of Queer Nation for many decades throughout the world, in many different situations, I have yet to meet a single individual of any self-definition, who actively attempted to convince another to “go gay.” This current gay rights marraige movement is just the latest manifestation of a much larger, and long term cause.
It is all about equal rights.
Bestiality, polygamy, incest…throw the kitchen sink if you care. You’d hardly be the first. Here you are traveling a slippery slope. No name calling is needed. You simply fail to understand differences. These three types of activities or relationships are all power-based, not usually performed with full and meaningful consent of all parties.
Polygamy=the subjugation of women in a male-dominated society. This has little to do with equal rights.
Bestiality=humans imposing their sexual domination over another species.
Incest=yet another power-based relationship.
Homosexual marriage=consenting adults involved in a loving relationship.
Vive la diffeence!
Notice, not once I have referred to religion. Despite the attempts of many to wrest control of the basic philosphies of American government: The Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc., thankfully there remains a separation of church and state. Your religious beliefs–or those of others–have NOTHING to do with these issues.
Above, Martha wrote:
“The concept of marriage has changed over and over again since Biblical times. Marriage has been a way to transfer property, to conquer enemy territory, to assure peace. Women entered into marriage and surrendered their rights to keep a bank account, to decide when they wanted to have sex, even to self-defense. Young girls could be married off to older men, with no right to refuse. It’s because marriage changes with society that these things are no longer true.
However, none of these changes came about because people could vote. They happened because we believe in the rule of law, and that the law protects the rights of everyone equally. In this country, we do not vote on the civil rights of others. If we did, it’s unlikely that slavery would have ended, or that African Americans and women could vote. The measure of a democracy is not that people get to vote (although that’s important) but that the rights of the minority are protected.”
There is no traditional marriage–it is a fluid concept that binds people based on the individuals involved. Few two are alike. Martha’s marriage and my own are completely different with no better or best implied or real. Both are longterm but the similarity stops there. Some of this is based on a culture and society that is in constant transition.Woo-hooo! There is nothing fixed about marraige. Only closed minds who refuse to consider the rights of others as worthy as their own. I daresay that the Wonderbread world of “Father Knows Best,” “Make Room for Daddy,” etc is long over. Whew!
Fianlly, I would be remiss if I passed by your own comment here:
“I once told a gay friend that I thought the majority of people world-wide would lose their aversion to re-defining the traditional definition of marriage when all restrooms and locker rooms in the world became co-ed.”
Uhhhh, they are headed that way. Google co-ed bathrooms, dorms, and locker rooms and you might be shocked and awed. Transsexuals and the Intersexed are behind this one: yet another group to fear with the lions, tigers and bears among us. Uh-oh and welcome to the 21st Century. It’s filled with all sorts of possibilities that involve freedom of human beings to live and love, respect the rights of others and exist without fear.
But, then, you might want to remain in the nearest closet where men rule and things never change. Trust me, it’s much safer there…}’;>)
peace and light,
pennie
Martha Thomases
November 16, 2008 - 7:17 am
R. Maheras, where are people being charged with hate crimes for opposing gay marriage? I know of no such laws.
There are public health reasons to oppose incest. And one can define marriage as the legal union of two adults (which is all gay people are asking). As for the inter-species thing, well, see my Superman example that started this column.
John Tebbel
November 16, 2008 - 7:40 am
In this and all other fields, tradition is crap, there are ten millions of them, each one run by some guy sitting on a sack of cash. Give me one constitution and a bill of rights and a President with the brains and guts to protect and defend it.
pennie
November 16, 2008 - 8:26 am
Yeah, why let science confuse the issue?
Each year brings an increasing number of discoveries by researchers revealing detailed work in genetics. Among them, right now, there is a growing consensus that human beings are born “hard-wired,” i.e., genetically predisposed to a sexual identity and gender. Translation: if one is gay or transgender, chances are that one was born that way.
Dr. Kinsey’s research led him to conclude that these groups represent about 1/10 of the American population–and that was during the 1950s when the closet loomed larger. In the current environment of growing acceptance, one might postulate that figure could be larger.
Why are those of us in Queer Nation less deserving of ANY right, including the right to marry?
Also, as Martha notes, these very same geneticists would point out the inherent dangers accompanying incest.
And John is just plain right. We can all cite traditions from the past that are plainly unfair, disrespectful, immoral, or…crap!
Get on the bus, Mr. Maheras. There’s plenty of room and the ride is worth every…
pennie
R. Maheras
November 16, 2008 - 10:19 am
I’m keeping it simple, but some of you are going out of your way to obfuscate the simple argument I am making.
I never evoked the term, or practice, of “bestiality,” yet some of you opted to raise the issue and argue it.
At least one of you raised the issue of polygamy as, “the subjugation of women in a male-dominated society,” adding that it “has little to do with equal rights.” In reality, however, the example of polygamy in my post was of a woman marrying six men. This makes it clear that I believe “equal-opportunity polygamy” would result in a marriage law allowing the union between any consenting adults. There IS no gender subjugation involved – just “consenting adults involved in a loving relationship.”
Martha wrote: “There are public health reasons to oppose incest.”
Name one besides the one I addressed in my earlier post – a problem that is no longer an issue given today’s medical technology. And keep in mind that there are very likely already examples of legal “incest” taking place in the U.S. today, through the anonymous sperm and egg donor programs. In all cases, however, genetic testing of a fetus during the early stages of pregnancy eliminates this as an issue – unless, of course, those involved are pro-life.
Martha Thomases
November 16, 2008 - 2:42 pm
R, the people who you cite are listed above, in comments you just read. Please cite your examples.
The state does not interfere with “consenting adults involved in a loving relationship. If a woman chooses to be involved with six men (or vice versa) there are no laws against that, nor in favor of it. The state is rightly neutral about our personal choices (although it was not always thus).
However, marriage can be limited to two consenting adults.
As for allowing incestuous marriages but forbidding them to have children, that’s a road I don’t want to go down. I don’t want the State determining when and whether I reproduce. I don’t want forced abortions any more than I want forced contraception or forced childbirth.
Now, about those hate crimes you mentioned, you still haven’t provided any examples.
Arthur Tebbel
November 16, 2008 - 7:50 pm
Can I go back to the “McCarthy Tactics” that Prop 8 opponents are using? If a business gave money to promote prop 8 and that makes people not want to patronize that business that isn’t blacklisting. I have no obligation to give my money to someone who will spend that money on things I don’t support. That’s a far cry from using a congressional committee to throw people in jail and deny them work.
R. Maheras
November 16, 2008 - 8:38 pm
Martha wrote: “However, marriage can be limited to two consenting adults.”
But if you take Western Civilization’s current religious taboos out of the equation, forcing consenting adults to enter into a loving relationship with only one other person at a time is really pretty arbitrary. After all, there are plenty of people who may think that such a government-mandated restraint is discriminatory.
Regarding the other religion-based taboo I discussed, incestuous marriages, I don’t understand how that could possibly be a road you don’t want to go down when the lesbian and heterosexual communities are ALREADY wrestling with the exact same public health “incest” issue due to the various anonymous and unregulated sperm donor programs utilized by women around the world. Recent cases in point: In two instances, 30 lesbians and 29 other women in the South Australian town of Adelaide who all were inseminated with sperm from one anonymous donor. Thus, it highlights just how technological advances may make it necessary in the future for governments to require mandatory testing of all fetuses in the womb anyway. If that’s the case, the only other reason left for banning incest among consenting adults will be religion-based taboos. Meaning we’re back to where we started this discussion: If we eliminate religion-based taboos, then there is no reason to limit marriage to anything other than a pact between consenting adults — period.
Is the world ready for truly nondiscriminatory and non-religion based marriage between consenting adults? You tell me.
Martha wrote, “Now, about those hate crimes you mentioned, you still haven’t provided any examples.”
In Sweden in 2005, a pastor named Ake Green was charged with and convicted of a hate crime for an anti-gay sermon he gave to his congregation. Although the conviction was later overturned by the Swedish Supreme Court, the eventual acquittal was condemned by gay rights groups who vowed to continue their fight to prosecute those who participated in the crime of ‘agitation against minority groups.’
In Canada, a Catholic priest is being investigated for a hate crime by the Canadian Human Rights Commission for merely arguing against gay marriage during a debate about the subject. Story link: http://catholicexchange.com/2008/06/04/112780/
There are others, but you get the idea.
Personally, I think it’s appalling that there are those in the gay community who feel they must resort to coercion, black-listing, intimidation, forced bankruptcy, and even arrest for those who disagree with the gay marriage platform.
Not exactly the smartest way to win over new converts, ya think?
R. Maheras
November 16, 2008 - 9:03 pm
Arthur wrote: “Can I go back to the “McCarthy Tactics” that Prop 8 opponents are using? If a business gave money to promote prop 8 and that makes people not want to patronize that business that isn’t blacklisting. I have no obligation to give my money to someone who will spend that money on things I don’t support. That’s a far cry from using a congressional committee to throw people in jail and deny them work.”
I’m sure Nixon, who was a big fan of “enemies lists,” would have whole-heartedly agreed with you.
During the McCarthy era, the only people that I know of who were thrown in jail were those who were actually found guilty of some specific crime, such as espionage.
The damages done to people by black-listing is far more subtle and insidious.
And frankly, I think black-listing is unethical under any circumstances.
Martha Thomases
November 16, 2008 - 9:13 pm
Maheras, none of your examples are American. We’re discussing Constitutional rights. We’re tending our own garden here before we start weeding elsewhere. And, if we do feel the need to stick our noses in other countries’ bedsheets, I’d like to start with banning female circumcision and widow burning.
Oh, that’s right, they feel those are religious and traditional rituals, and therefore the kind of thing you’re defending.
As for boycotts, they are a form of free speech. I have no obligation to spend my hard-earned money supporting people who don’t act in my best interests, if that’s a choice I want to make. It’s why I don’t shop at Wal-Mart, and I do shop at Costco. If that strikes you as McCarthy-esque, well, I think it’s just as harmful to force me to spend my money in ways I don’t like.
R. Maheras
November 16, 2008 - 10:17 pm
C’mon, Martha. You know we live in a global village these days, do we not? The pressures to conform to “global standards” is real and constant.
For example, the recent U.S. Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007 that passed the House and the Senate while attached to a Defense Authorization bill (sneaky, eh?), but was removed after a veto threat by Bush II, is said by some to ape similar, broader hate crimes legislation abroad — legislation that could weaken free speech here in the United States.
a “Liberty Online” article about the legislation had a pretty good assessment about why such laws, if passed, could be very subtle, but eventually very real threats to free speech in the United States. Here are the pertinent paragraphs:
“An accurate reading of the Kennedy-Smith Act, however, would demonstrate that religious speech itself will not be censored or criminalized. The bill also promises that evidence of expression or association of the defendant may not be introduced as substantive evidence at trial unless it specifically relates to the particular offense.
This provision is only marginally protective, however, as a mildly-creative prosecutor could easily find ways to admit evidence as to bias and relate it somehow to the actual crime. This would be particularly useful in politically charged, high-profile cases. Any crime involving perpetrators and victims of different race, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation could conceivably become a federal case, even though the states would normally handle it.
Although the proposed federal legislation purportedly protects the freedom of speech that does not lead to a crime, as more and more cases arise and society changes, the United States could follow the example of Canada and other nations in which hate speech is broadly defined and can be prosecuted whether or not it is accompanied by a physical act.”
It’s that last sentence that sends chills down my spine.
Link to entire article: http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/articleview/710/1/105/
Martha Thomases
November 17, 2008 - 6:21 am
We’re talking about the Constitution, R, not right-wing paranoid fantasies about what might happen. And, it seems to me, equal rights for all is the minimum amount of liberty to which we’re entitled.
Me, I want more.
pennie
November 17, 2008 - 9:40 am
R,
Not unlike last debate in which I participated with you, you start with one argument, and then wander everywhere, in this case, all over the world, far from the point of departure. It’s that same old kitchen sink thing again. Google until you find something, somewhere to lean on.
AFAIK, the laws of this country do not apply anywhere else, global village notwithstanding. It’s a fact, but don’t let it get in your way. Your use of behaviors like polyandry as an example, so minute in reality in the US today, is pitiful. There is a significant difference between the number of gay Americans affected by their inability to marry and the number of American women who practice polyandry (if they exist in any measurable quantity).
Why were the Civil Rights Acts passed in the 1960s? Because there was a general recognition that despite a lack of desire for these rights to be granted by many Americans, enough legislators and members of the judiciary saw the immediate need for legislative and judicial relief. If mob rule was in effect, many minorities would be in even greater danger than we already are now.
The same situation–in America–exists right now. Your focus on the rest of the world who are not affected by our laws, and the smallest or most unusual of behaviors does not change this one iota.
Are you a lesbian? No? Didn’t think so as you already allowed you are a man.
I’m a married lesbian with six children. Many of my friends are gay and lesbian. Some also have kids. Some have used sperm banks for assistance. Some use other means. As a member of many net discussion groups, as well as knowing many lesbians, I do not know of a single case of a couple who did not perform the most intricate and detailed research into a prosepective father. This is far different than you googling and fishing for your far-flung examples and once again, yet another example of a man patronizing women–in this case, lesbians. Kind of like telling us before
I don”t claim to know what is good or best for male hetros. Would never do so. THAT would be patronizing.
A large population in AMERICA is affected by restrictive and outdated laws that are changing. Whether you care for it–or not–The times they are a’ changin’. You can throw in that old kitchen sink and call Joe the Plumber for more wrenches but it really don’t mean a thing.
History has shown that when human beings are denied basic and equal rights and treatment, they take steps.
All your right-wing propaganda doesn’t alter a thing.
pennie
John Tebbel
November 17, 2008 - 10:03 am
How quickly the front lines about the majority deciding how many rights a minority may enjoy are abandoned behind a smokescreen. Which straw man deserves a match? Which stalking horse should be let to run away in the confusion. These are the questions some would have us decide while lives run out and the war dead mount up. Excuse me, I have to send a little boy down to the church to find out why they’re ringing that bell.
Better Dead Than Red
November 17, 2008 - 11:52 am
Just for the Record, and clarification…
Definitions of Civil Unions…
a legally recognized and voluntary union of adult parties of the same sex.
Parties to a civil union have all the same protections, responsibilities, and rights as partners in marriage.
A legal union of a same-sex couple, sanctioned by a civil authority.
A voluntary union for life (or until divorce) of adult parties of the same sex; “parties to a civil union have all the same benefits, protections, and responsibilities under Vermont law as spouses in a marriage”
The end result being…Civil Unions = LEGAL Marriage. So, why all the hubbub people? To all the homosexuals out there, and to those of you posting here…YOU ALREADY HAVE YOUR RIGHT TO WED there is no need to amend language. So please, stop the violence. You are becoming, that which you fight against.
The “definition” of marriage was voted on, and you lost. But, take heart, you still have your Civil Union, which (as previously stated) IS THE SAME THING.
How you celebrate your “wedding”, “partnership”, “merger”, etc. Would be based upon your RELIGIOUS beliefs.
John Tebbel
November 17, 2008 - 12:09 pm
Again, a member of class that’s got it’s own tells them that’s not they really do, they just don’t know it. If the two entities were indeed the same, they wouldn’t need two names, among other, more complicated tests.
Better Dead Than Red
November 17, 2008 - 12:53 pm
John,
Definitions of Marriage:
the SOCIAL INSTITUTION under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, RELIGIOUS ceremonies, etc.
the legal OR religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities.
a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, WITHOUT LEGAL SANCTION.
Again, CIVIL UNION = Marriage
Russ Rogers
November 17, 2008 - 1:29 pm
When the founding fathers (because, at the time, there could be no founding mothers) created the separation of church and state, it was to keep the state from creating a State Sponsored Religion. As it turned out, this was the BEST thing that could have happened to Religion in our Country. Without State sponsorship, people are free to know that their religious convictions are personal and sincere. We have more participation in religion in this country than other developed nations, and I credit the Separation of Church and State directly for the strength of Religion in America!
That said, Proposition 8 was not an essay question. You weren’t asked WHY you were voting for or against Prop 8. So whether you voted for or against Prop 8 based on your religious values, your vote was still valid. Just because we don’t have a State Sponsored Religion, that doesn’t make people who base their world view on their religion have an INVALID opinion. We have freedom of expression and freedom of religion. That means you can base your ideas on whatever notions you want, religious or atheist, relevant or silly, reasoned or absurdist. It just doesn’t matter. Your vote still counts.
Martha, just because you think that non-religious reasoning should be the only reasoning considered in making a decision about a legal Proposition, that’s just not going to happen. Not if you put something up for a public vote. So instead of just dismissing all religious reasons as “silly, stupid, prejudiced, bigoted or somehow anti-American and illegal,” why not think of some RELIGIOUS reasons why RELIGIOUS people should oppose legislation like Proposition 8!
Here’s MY religious reasoning. I live by a creed known as the “Golden Rule.” Jesus said (and I’m paraphrasing) “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.”. It’s a philosophyt common to many world religions. I imagine, “Do I want other people deciding who I can legally love and marry?” The answer is “NO!” It’s that simple. And for me, it’s a moral and religious choice. Keith Olbermann made this same argument, far more eloquently than I can.
Now, I don’t subscribe to R. Maheras’ slippery slope idea about the subject of redefining marriage. Legalizing Gay Marriage doesn’t open the door to polygamy or incest. There used to be laws that illegalized miscegenation, interracial marriage! For goodness sakes, striking down those laws didn’t create a slippery slope! Unless you think THIS is part of THAT slope.
There are LOTS of reasons, beyond religious or biological, why incest is illegal. Why is it immoral (and in some cases illegal) for Psychiatrists to become sexually involved with their patients? Because there should be some relationships that are kept professional and outside or sexual pressures. The same is true of Prison Wardens and Prisoners! The FAMILY dynamic is ONE of those relationships. Incest is illegal because you can break up with your boyfriend. It’s a HELL of a lot harder to break up with your FATHER!
But R. Maheras was hesitant to voice his opinion here. He seemed to think that our society doesn’t encourage civil discussion or debate. He seemed to think that if he put forth an opposing view, he would immediately get labeled a bigot or religious fanatic.
It’s a good thing that the commentators on this blog didn’t waste any time proving him wrong.
Joe in Philly dismissed his comments as a “pathetic screed.” And Uncle Robbie said, “Believe it or not, pupcake, no one cares. So far you’ve proven that your many opinions aren’t in the least bit relevant, helpful, or welcome. Take your olde time macho religious bigotry elsewhere.”
I think R. Maheras muddies the waters of his arguments against Prop 8 by bring up “Hate Crimes” legislation. They are two separate issues. Personally, as long as we have the distinction in law between first and second degree murder (the only difference being the intent and forethought that goes into the crime), I think it’s perfectly valid to have “Hate Crime” legislation. If a prosecutor can show that a crime was committed for no other reason than to perpetuate HATE, I think that should be a valid consideration in the sentencing of that crime. HATE CRIME legislation doesn’t make it a crime to hate or have prejudice, it just magnifies the punishments if you illegally act on that HATE. And there is a difference between free speech and inciting crime.
But, obviously R. Maheras was very insightful when he said that there was a lot of hatred and intolerance for his views.
Look people, you won’t change anybody’s mind about extending tolerance to more people and different ideas by being INTOLERANT of them and theirs! If you label religious people as bigots, irrelevant or their words as “screeds” or “propoganda,” you won’t change a thing. You will just dig a deeper trench between you and “the other side.” You can’t fight intolerance with more and different intolerance. It just doesn’t work. It perpetuates HATE, not understanding.
R. Maheras, speaking as a self-proclaimed knee-jerk liberal (and yes, that sometimes means I act more like a jerk than a liberal), I would like to apologize for the way you have been treated in some of these comments. You expressed an opinion. You didn’t resort to name calling. And for that, you got called some pretty mean things. I mean “Pupcake”? Them’s fighting words!
That said, R. Maheras, I think you are wrong. California had legal gay marriage for months. Ellen Degeneres had a widely publicized marriage to Portia de Rossi. At no time did I find my own heterosexual marriage diminished by this, quite the contrary. I didn’t see my daughters confused by this. My daughters didn’t even notice. Frankly, if Gay Marriage were legal, that would only make my wife’s commitment to me MORE special. Not that she would change her mind…I hope. But right now, she picked me out of just 50% of the population. It would DOUBLE her commitment to me if she were open to choose from the other 50%! That’s just simple math.
If a person can find a life partner and can say, “I want to LOVE, RESPECT and NURTURE this person for the rest of our lives,” how can I do anything less than celebrate that courage and commitment!
Nobody is asking anyone to change their Religious Views. There is no call for every church in the nation to sanctify every legal marriage. But, just because a couple aren’t allowed to get married in some church, that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be allowed to get married at all.
Better Dead Than Red
November 17, 2008 - 2:18 pm
Russ, you bring up some very good points that are well thought out, and bring out the best in what DEBATE really is. For that sir, I tip my hat and say “thank you” for being so cordial. I wish others would follow suit.
But, I will say, yet again…Marriage is the same thing as a Civil Union, in every legal way. No one has outlawed homosexual people to engage in any ceremony, but for the term “marriage”. You can call it what you will and any thesaurus would more than likely suffice. But, I still fail to see what is so wrong about homosexual “civil unions” being analogous to heterosexual “marriage”. This is all about parsing words…literally.
Furthermore, though you and many others may oppose the idea of it being placed on the ballot, it was. The will, of the majority of the state decided the DEFINITION of marriage. Now, in the California Constitution, marriage means a civil union between one man and one woman.
As for your example of Ellen getting married when it was “legal”…All parties involved, who decided to “get married” during that window, were all made aware, that it could be overturned. In the slim chance that they weren’t informed, that is on them for not vetting out the real possibilities of the (at that time) impending election. Now, the worse case scenario (in my opinion) is that those “marriages” are to be found as illegal, now. BUT, that doesn’t nullify their nuptials, it changes their definition from “Marriage” to “Civil Union”. Honestly…do you feel that any of them will now “rethink” their relationship because of terminology? If so, it wasn’t on the strongest of foundations in the first place. I know that my spouse and I still “got married” when we did, and that we are still a couple bound together, regardless of the definition.
So, to all the homosexuals out there, why not embrace the term CIVIL UNION, as yours. As memory serves, the term “gay” used to strictly mean happy.
Martha Thomases
November 17, 2008 - 2:29 pm
My old buddy, Russ Rogers, said, “So instead of just dismissing all religious reasons as “silly, stupid, prejudiced, bigoted or somehow anti-American and illegal,” why not think of some RELIGIOUS reasons why RELIGIOUS people should oppose legislation like Proposition 8!”.
Don’t know what you’re quoting, but it’s not me.
I agree that we decide our votes for a variety of reason, including our religious views (or lack thereof). I agree that this is how it should be.
However, I disagree that churches, which are tax exempt precisely because they are churches and separate from the secular world, should impose strictly political biases on their congregants. Religious leaders who preach — from the pulpit (and in this case I’m only describing their behavior on the pulpit, not in other settings) — should be taxed, just as other political entities (such as the ACLU) are taxed.
My Jewish upbringing was very influential in my political growth. I took the Ten Commandments seriously, especially that one about not killing. And I learned, from my studies, that Jews were not allowed to be citizens, and their choices were not respected, in lots of other places. Which is why I came to think it’s so important to have equal protection under the law.
Now, if we want to define marriage as only a religious sacrament, that’s fine. If so, however, you’ll have to take the word “marriage” out of the secular law.
Russ Rogers
November 17, 2008 - 3:29 pm
I wasn’t quoting you, Martha. I tend to overuse quotes when I’m writing. Like John McCain overuses those “air-quotes.” Sorry. I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth.
I agree that Separation of Church and State should give Organized Religion some pause about injecting their influence (especially financial influence) on Political Matters. It’s one thing for the Mormon Church to oppose Gay Marriage and discuss that from the pulpit. For example, I think Political Leaders or people campaigning for office should be allowed to speak from the pulpit. That’s free speech. But, there should be a difference between attending a church service and a political rally. And, it’s quite another thing for ONE QUARTER of the money spent supporting Prop 8 to come out of the Mormon Church!
You are right, a Religious Group that get’s too closely involved and intermeshed with politicking should be in danger of losing their tax-exempt religious standing and be viewed as just another political entity. The Separation of Church and State needs to be respected by both the State AND the Church. It’s both a right and a responsibility.
I don’t believe Better Dead Than Red’s argument that CIVIL UNIONS are the same as MARRIAGE. That’s “separate but equal” thinking. [There I go, using the quotes again!] It’s not just a question of semantics. We’ve seen pretty clearly that Separate rarely means Equal. Just look at the lines for the Women’s bathroom at Sports Stadiums, they’re twice as long as the line for the Men’s Room! And not as many women attend the games!
I like the word, “marriage.” Gay folks should be allowed to get Married. They should be able to form families. These families should be recognized by state governments, medical insurance, auto-insurance and whatever other businesses that extend benefits to married couples. To my thinking, that just seems fair.
Some Priests and Rabbis won’t perform inter-faith ceremonies. They won’t marry a Jew and a Catholic unless one of them converts. That’s their right as religious leaders, to refuse to sanctify those marriages, by refusing to perform those ceremonies. BUT, that doesn’t mean that it should be ILLEGAL for Jews and Catholics to marry.
If Churches don’t want to recognize and sanctify the marriages of GAY people, that’s their right. Just like some churches don’t recognize inter-faith marriage. But that shouldn’t make those marriages illegal!
pennie
November 17, 2008 - 3:49 pm
To Better Dead than Read.
In fact, you are wrong. Civil Unions are NOT the same.
“The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits,
such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.”
Here are some of the legal rights that married couples have and gays and lesbians are denied:
1. Joint parental rights of children
2. Joint adoption
3. Status as “next-of-kin” for hospital visits and medical decisions
4. Right to make a decision about the disposal of loved ones remains
5. Immigration and residency for partners from other countries
6. Crime victims recovery benefits
7. Domestic violence protection orders
8. Judicial protections and immunity
9. Automatic inheritance in the absence of a will
10. Public safety officers death benefits
11. Spousal veterans benefits
12. Social Security
13. Medicare
14. Joint filing of tax returns
15. Wrongful death benefits for surviving partner and children
16. Bereavement or sick leave to care for partner or children
17. Child support
18. Joint Insurance Plans
19. Tax credits including: Child tax credit, Hope and lifetime learning credits
20. Deferred Compensation for pension and IRAs
21. Estate and gift tax benefits
22. Welfare and public assistance
23. Joint housing for elderly
24. Credit protection
25. Medical care for survivors and dependents of certain veterans
These are just a few of the 1400 state and federal benefits that gays and lesbians are denied by not being able to marry. Most of these benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for within the legal system.
pennie
pennie
November 17, 2008 - 3:51 pm
PS: I apologize for addressing you as “Better Dead than Read” rather than “Red”
pennie
pennie
November 17, 2008 - 4:18 pm
PSS…The information above needs to be attributed to the about.com website but it can be found in numerous places.
pennie
Better Dead Than Red
November 17, 2008 - 4:38 pm
Pennie, you may want to re-check the figures considering that those were reported in 1997 and they have revisited, and updated it since then. Is it perfect for your case? No, not yet. But, there were many things that have been repealed since then. Which is what you are supposed to campaign for. It is, and will more than likely, be an ongoing process.
As a matter of fact, here is a direct quote from the report they submitted in 2004…”For example, because of the inherent limitations of any global electronic search and
the many ways in which the laws of the United States Code may deal with marital status, we cannot guarantee that we have captured every individual law in the United States Code in which marital status figures.”
A couple more tidbits…
Your quote…” Most of these benefits cannot be privately arranged or contracted for within the legal system” is categorically as false, as false can be.
You can go to any attorney (especially, in California) and ask them about it. I know, I have. According to them, everything that the term “marriage” receives, so to can Civil Unions and Domestic Partnerships. It would be illegal otherwise.
In Vermont, as an example, same-sex couples in the state who obtain a civil union license and get it certified, gain all the same benefits, protections and responsibilities under Vermont law that are granted to spouses in a traditional marriage.
That should be the more easily attainable goal for you folks. It is as simple as getting it on a California Ballot Measure. Something like that, I don’t believe would lose.
Arthur Tebbel
November 17, 2008 - 10:34 pm
Make them all civil unions. Your church can marry you, you’ll know you were married and the church can marry whoever they want and exclude whoever they want. I’ll cede that marriage is a religious institution that shouldn’t be meddled with by the state if that means the state can’t issue pieces of paper with the word “marriage” on them.
Otherwise I think I’ll leave it to Chief Justice Warren who said that Separate but Equal was “inherently unequal.”
R. Maheras
November 17, 2008 - 11:02 pm
Martha wrote: “We’re talking about the Constitution, R, not right-wing paranoid fantasies about what might happen. And, it seems to me, equal rights for all is the minimum amount of liberty to which we’re entitled.”
In the context of my original argument, if we eliminate past religious taboos and change the traditional definition of marriage to just a simple union of consenting adults, for true equality, it would have to include relationships other than just gay and lesbian partnerships. Yet even you, who supposedly are for “equal rights for all,” balked at incestuous unions, and others here balked at polygamy.
And that was my point: Is society as a whole ready for all types of consenting-adult marriages, rather than the traditional variety based on the past religious mores of Western Civilization?
Some of you claim you are, but it’s pretty obvious your definition of equality has its limits – just like the pious folks whose limits you criticize, and in some cases, mock.
Pennie wrote: “Not unlike last debate in which I participated with you, you start with one argument, and then wander everywhere, in this case, all over the world, far from the point of departure. It’s that same old kitchen sink thing again.”
I don’t know what you are talking about. I clearly explained my simple point — in one sentence, no less — and it was you and others who started wandering all over the map. All I did was respond to the comments of other posters.
Here’s my simple point, one more time: “In other words, to be fair, marriage would have to be legal between any consenting adults – period.”
Russ Rogers wrote: “But R. Maheras was hesitant to voice his opinion here. He seemed to think that our society doesn’t encourage civil discussion or debate. He seemed to think that if he put forth an opposing view, he would immediately get labeled a bigot or religious fanatic.”
Huh? If that were the case, I never would have posted here in the first place. I’d just keep my mouth shut and collect stamps.
Russ Rogers wrote: “I think R. Maheras muddies the waters of his arguments against Prop 8 by bring up “Hate Crimes” legislation. They are two separate issues.”
No, they are not. The Canadian priest who is currently under investigation for a “hate crime” was merely debating what he believes were the cons of gay marriage. And despite the quips of those who think Americans live in a vacuum and believe what happens in other countries is irrelevant, the Canadian government’s actions are sobering. If I were the Pope, I’d watch out which countries I visited — after all, he’s on record condemning gay marriage.
Russ Rogers wrote: “speaking as a self-proclaimed knee-jerk liberal (and yes, that sometimes means I act more like a jerk than a liberal), I would like to apologize for the way you have been treated in some of these comments. You expressed an opinion. You didn’t resort to name calling.”
I appreciate the sentiment, but the insults really don’t bother me at all.
Arthur Tebbel
November 18, 2008 - 12:46 am
Alright I’ll jump in on the any consenting adults argument. I think there’s a legitimate public health concern with incest that is completely absent with same-sex marriage. There’s no way to prevent them from reproducing that I think anyone would be comfortable with. If you have that way or an argument that we should let those people reproduce and damn the consequences I’d love to hear it. You seemed to be running along the edges of one by suggesting we test any pregnancies but by that point it would seem to be too late, can’t force people to abort their incest babies. Maybe I’m misinterpreting you there though, I haven’t been paying that much attention.
And polygamy? As long as there was a mechanism in place to ensure it was actually consensual be my guest. It isn’t really the same argument though. Marriage is a collection of legal rights right now. They couldn’t all have automatic inheritance for example. It would seem to allow polygamy would require a much more broad re-imagining than allowing gays to marry especially where it came to tax law. That said if you could iron out these problems and, again, it was actually consensual (and not the child rape factory it is among the splinter sects from the LDS) I think I could get behind it. I don’t care who people live with or who they sleep with.
Still would prefer if the state didn’t call anything marriage.
John Tebbel
November 18, 2008 - 6:14 am
Blame Canada!
Vinnie Bartilucci
November 18, 2008 - 8:53 am
I’ll summarize my oft-posted opinion…
There’s two camps on the “anti” side – the ones against the word “gay” and the ones against the word “marriage”. The ones who are anti-gay will not have their minds changed. The ones who are anti “marriage” are just sticking to centuries of tradition, and they don’t like the idea of seeing the definition of “marriage” change simply because That’s Not What It Means.
Going for civil unions over “Marriage” would neatly bypass that sticking point. While a bit of legal semantics would prevent your piece of paper from being a “marriage” license, you would receive all the benefits of a married couple (as long as there’s changes to the laws to make sure that the union is legally recognized in all 50 states, a far more important piece of legislation that I think gets ignored). Colloqually, nobody is going to get invited to the Civil Union reception and send Civil Union presents. Ordinary people will say “married”, save for those truly against the idea, who will annoyingly point out that you’re NOT married, you have a Civil Union. And people will smile and not at those people the way we do when someone pipes up with the chestnut “You know, a bird actually eats three times its body weight in a day, so you say ‘eats like a bird’ you really…”
Contrariwise, a good number of the folks on the “pro” side are not going to settle for “Civil Union”; they want the magic word “marriage” and all the implied acceptance that carries with it. The folks who are anti-gay aren’t going to suddenly change their minds if it’s Marriage instead of Civil Union.
If you go all-or-nothing, it’s quite possible you’ll go home with nothing. Speaking pragmatically, it makes more sense to go for Civil Union, and let the vernacular take you the rest of the way.
Just sayin.
Better Dead Than Red
November 18, 2008 - 11:30 am
Vinnie, you nailed it. That is what I was saying all along. Thank you for reminding me that I am not insane.
Uncle Robbie
November 18, 2008 - 12:15 pm
“Personally, I think it’s appalling that there are those in the gay community who feel they must resort to coercion, black-listing, intimidation, forced bankruptcy, and even arrest for those who disagree with the gay marriage platform.”
Yes, that sort of behavior is usally reserved for the majority. How dare we!
Uncle Robbie
November 18, 2008 - 12:55 pm
Better Dead Than Red seems to think civil unions are the equivalent of marriage and that any opposing opinion is just an argument over terminology (irrespective of the facts). If this really is the same term (a wolf in sheep’s clothing, if you will), why aren’t heterosexuals lining up to get their Civil Union Licenses so they can be joined in holy civil unity and annually celebrate their civil union anniversary watching “Civil Unity…With Children” while their dinner simmers on the stove until the flavors civilly unite? I’ll tell you why. Because no one leaps for the tarnished ring of second class citizenship.
If “Civil Union = Marriage” then call it marriage. What gives the USA have the right to legally define any word in this “global village” anyway? Especially a Middle English word (marien) from an Anglo-French word (marier) from a Latin word (maritus) dating back to the 14th century? Given the failure rate of heterosexual unions, you’d think y’all would do anything you could to divorce yourselves from the term.
[sigh]
Just another example of the irrational fear of anything that threatens your manhood. All the curiosities and explorations of your collective youth that still make you question how close to 0 you really are on Kinsey’s scale allow you to come together in a way you feel is socially acceptable: to deny a minority something you don’t value yourselves just because they want it.
Ultimately, though, that’s what the Republican platform boils down to, be it privilege or money. To the victor the spoils. The meek shall inherit the dirt. Just another example of how ridiculous we appear to the “global village,” where country after country grants marriage rights to all of their citizens and wonders why the USA holds itself up as the model to which all should aspire. And when we catch them sneering at us (even our allies), we denigrate them, like an entire country with self esteem issues (“You’re just jealous because we’re better than you!”) Fucking Puritans.
Martha Thomases
November 18, 2008 - 1:05 pm
Well said, Uncle Robbie. For a country at war with fundamentalist terrorism, we seem to practice a lot of it.
Mike Gold
November 18, 2008 - 2:25 pm
I hold a very conservative view of marriage, and it’s quite simple: Government has no business regulating it. Such regulation is not in the public interest. I also don’t think government has the right to tax it, but that’s a different issue.
If we hold to the concept of the separation of church and state (well, at least for the purpose of conversation) then a church is not obligated to marry any people they do not want to marry. If they say only right-handed money-contributing virgins of the same faith can marry in their church, that’s their business. Church ceremonies of all sorts are completely irrelevant to me, except for those that involve physical mutilation of children.
As for Russ’s comments about the slippery slope, well, most of ’em I don’t care about one way or the other. Leona Helmsley left most of her considerable fortune to her dog instead of to her kids; the world survived and so did her kids. If she actually wanted to marry the little fucker, I couldn’t have cared less.
But I do go a little wacko when people talk about the “traditional” definition of marriage. Historically (at the risk of being redundant) the traditional definition of marriage since, say, the United States became more-or-less united has involved multiple partner arrangements, contractual property agreements (where the bride has usually, but not always, been the property) and sundry pagan relationships. On the other hand, interracial marriages have only been legal in all 50 states since the turn of the century. That’s the 21st Century; the last such law was repealed in 2000.
“Traditional” marriage is whatever was yesterday’s fad. It has no basis in law, in morality, or in anybody else’s business. Government has no right to define it — and NOR DO THE MASSES. A majority of people (“you know,” Gene Wilder said in Blazing Saddles, “assholes”) are opposed to it? So what? Who cares? A majority of people in the United States were opposed to black people. Period. Three-fifths human, remember? The entire purpose of the Bill of Rights was to establish and protect the rights of the minority and not the majority.
I am now, have always been, and will forever be a member of the “Mind Your Own Business” party.